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Thread: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

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    Default Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Hi everyone, I wonder if I could ask for some advice?
    I managed to purchase three Phyllomedusa bicolor from Hamm on 14th of March (quite a rarity over here!)
    I bought them from a Czech dealer who said that they were wild-caught (of course) and he had them since before last Christmas and had treated them with antibiotics and they were feeding on crickets. (Obviously only his word for this). They appear in good condition with no visible wounds or lesions and apparently in good health.
    The issue is since I got them home, they haven't moved or even opened their eyes with almost no exception. There's 2 large (probable female) and one smaller (probable male). I would ordinarily put this behaviour down to the stress of relocating, but there comes a point when you think they are going to starve themselves to death if it continues much longer.
    The smaller individual was on the floor of the vivarium the other morning, eyes open and covered in substrate (eco-earth). I took him over to the water bowl and cleaned him off and let him sit in there (in case it was water he was looking for). He climbed out after a minute or two but is very unsteady and weak looking. I held a cricket in front of him but of course he showed to interest. He was then moving around in this unsteady fashion looking distressed and like he might fall at any minute. He died later that day. In desperation (and against the advice of care sheets as to correct humidity) that night I heavily misted the vivarium, absolutely soaked it (as if a tropical storm had passed through) to my surprise the remaining two woke up and started waxing themselves. They then moved around the vivarium and quite possibly fed although I didn't see this (crickets and locusts are present at all times). Since then they have gone back to this apparently dormant state but seem to be getting thinner. I've been varying the humidity and have tried soaking again but this has had no further effect.
    Not sure what to do for the best, I considered a vet, but it would be considerable extra stress (which might the problem in the first place) and there isn't anything obviously medically wrong. That and the only herp vet anywhere near I have my doubts about (but I'll start another thread on that!)
    They are in a 200cm x 70cm x 70cm vivarium with humidity at 60% and a temperature gradient of 30C and the top to 22C at the bottom. The room they are in is not used and very quiet at all times.
    Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!


    Many thanks,


    Jason.


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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Need more info, based on what you said so far - you need basking spot at about 32-34C during a day. Humidity is a bit too high as well, however bicolors can tolerate a bit higher humidity then waxies, you will need to keep it under 50, 60 is ok occasionally.

    Do you have uvb? If so how strong?

    pics of the frogs are needed, not getting exactly what antibiotics were used and why. You need to get their poop tested. WC will always have a heavy parasite load, it's needs to be fixed asap in captivity.

    vivarium - can't see, it's it glass or mesh?
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Hi Lija,

    Thanks for the response. The vivarium is glass except for the top which is mesh. There's a basking light and a 2ft 5% tube up there along with a ceramic heater and moonlight bulbs on a thermostat. There are also heat mats attached to the outside of the rear wall low down, again thermostatically controlled.
    Humidity is controlled by a repti-fogger on a humidistat. I set it at 60% after referring to these care sheets:

    How to Care for the Giant Waxy Monkey Tree Frog
    Phyllomedusa bicolor care sheet - talk to the frog
    MonkeyFrogs.com - Phyllomedusine Species List
    Giant Bicolor Monkey Tree Frog Care - JABBERWOCK REPTILESJABBERWOCK REPTILES

    I've turned the fogger off for tonight so I'll see how low the humidity goes. What do you think would be the correct level to aim for would be?
    I'll get some photos of the actual animals in the morning.
    Poop might be a problem - I haven't seen any yet!

    Thanks again for taking the time to help!

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Here's some photos of the guys themselves:























    Having turned off the humidifier and added a fan blowing gently downward last night, the humidity has dropped below 50%. There was movement, the frog near the top of the cage has moved down to half way where the other one has been sitting for days. Maybe to get away from the breeze? Unfortunately it seems I didn't switch my camera on to record last night so I don't know how much activity there was apart from this relocation. I'll make sure to set it tonight.

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    The biggest concern here is your cage, it doesn't provide enough air flow. Stagnant air will kill them even if everything else is fine, but I think for your smaller one, the one that died, that was an cause. I think he was already sick and stressed out. Bigger females sometimes bully poor guys too, especially if kept in not exactly oroperly conditions and you don't know how the seller kept them before. My point is I don't think anything you did or didn't do could have changed the outcome.

    it is a modified fish tank , right? If so, you can substitute one side with all mesh?

    skip the fogger all together, no need for it. A spray once a week or a few days a week is sufficient, have a water bowl, they will go soak up they feel the need.

    Dont expect much of movement lol these are waxies, well , the giant ones, but they all are the same. They take a word lazy to the whole new level lol sometimes they are too lazy to even open their eyes... Later when they get used to the environment, try very gently to move sleeping frog to your finger.... I bet it won't notice, and if it would it'll be too lazy to wake up lol very funny.

    they look healthy, the 4th pic from the top is a female. Keep looking for a poop unfortunately you put them in naturalistic tank.... Is there any way to change soil to papertowels? It will help with see the poop.... And you will need to remove everything anyway when you are going to treat them. Unless the seller meant antiparasitic treatment, not antibiotics.

    Are they eating?
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Just wondering, as I have no Waxie experience, but is it normal for Waxies to sit hunched like that?
    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Quote Originally Posted by irThumper View Post
    Just wondering, as I have no Waxie experience, but is it normal for Waxies to sit hunched like that?
    yes lol

    2.2.0 - Giant Waxy Monkey Frogs
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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Good to know that's normal! I was reading about, I think it was Chytrid, recently (might have been red leg, but don't think so) and the article mentioned a constant "hunched position" as a sign.
    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    This morning's update: I've removed the fogger and the fan has been set to switch on and off at random times to improve airflow. The cage is actually a shower enclosure with double glazed sides and a mesh roof. I can easily replace the front door with a screen door if this is the way to go although the humidity is now at 45%. My only concern is that pretty much all the care sheets I've looked at seem to recommend 60% (with one I just found relating to a zoo where they are kept at 65%). While they are waxies, unlike sauvagii they are not from the dry Chacoan region, and the waxy adaptation in bicolor may be more to do with being able to withstand the breezy conditions in the upper rainforest canopy. An area where the frog can move in and out of at will and tolerate these dryer conditions for longer while still able to move back to the more humid conditions lower down.
    Anyway, that's just a thought and clearly these frogs can be kept in dry conditions without harm either way but presumably only if they are descending to a water source at night to hydrate. The two I have do NOT appear to be doing this or eating at present.
    I've been using a video camera at night to monitor their behaviour, but a tape only lasts for 90 mins so nothing was certain, however I bought yesterday a ccty system with hard drive so I can now record a full night and watch it on fast forward to see what's happening. I've just done this and can confirm that last night they did not use the water bowl and they did not feed. There was some slight, brief movement, but this seemed to be relocation to possibly being nibbled by crickets (I keep a bowl of cricket food in there to help prevent this).
    Just to stress, I am not concerned that as a species they don't move around much, this may or may not be the case naturally. My concern is that mine don't move at all to hydrate or feed.
    I'll remove the substrate today and replace with paper towels to see if any pop shows up.
    The slight movement last night enabled me to get some slightly better photos, they do appear dryer to me and one of them seems to have some skin partially sloughed and stuck:



















    Incidentally Lija, what is the give away that makes the one in that fourth photo down female? And what do you think about the other one gender-wise?

    Thanks again for all input!

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Quote Originally Posted by irThumper View Post
    Good to know that's normal! I was reading about, I think it was Chytrid, recently (might have been red leg, but don't think so) and the article mentioned a constant "hunched position" as a sign.

    That is definitely normal lol
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Need pic that would show the profile of the frog, the line from the nose down the chin, not sideways or the angle, but like 4th pic. Be back on that. In females that line goes straight down like in that pic, in males it goes on an angle, chin is visibly more out.

    dont like the excess shredded skin on one of them.

    ok, can you the following , do electrolyte bath, 10 parts of water: 1 part of unflavoured pedyalite or whatever else you have in stores. Any pediatric unflavoured electrolyte solution would do. Keep in a bath no higher then frogs chin for 20 min. Warning.... They will hate every second of it!
    The bath will help them with water exchange and will make them feel better after they're past the fact of a bath itself lol but do up at night, when the lights are off.

    humidity, yes they need higher humidity then waxies, but it has to go with excellent airflow. Very similar to chameleons.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    100+ Post Member irThumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Diver... a converted shower stall and a froggy surveillance system?? Man, you are hard core... I love it!
    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Quote Originally Posted by irThumper View Post
    Diver... a converted shower stall and a froggy surveillance system?? Man, you are hard core... I love it!
    Well I knew these were going to be difficult and I'm prepared to do absolutely anything to give them the best chance possible. From the research I'd done I knew a large enclosure was needed, I wasn't prepared for the complete lack of movement or any apparent will to live hence the surveillance system to remove and question or assumption about their activities.
    Unfortunately last night's footage reveals that one didn't move a muscle and the other moved about 6 inches from the stalk she was sitting on to a piece of moss on the tree trunk at 6 this morning. Not good. Still no water or food being taken.
    I have turned the fogger back on this morning to get the humidity back up to 60% as they're clearly not hydrating themselves. I've also changed the timer on the fan to come on less frequently. I'm heading to the pharmacy this morning to see what I can buy for an electrolyte bath (we don't have Pedyalite over here).

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    OK, tracked down some unflavoured electrolyte and the frogs had their 20 minute bath. They weren't energetic and fell back asleep without much of a struggle. I'll monitor them for the next couple of days but if no food is taken I'm think I'm going to have to consider force feeding


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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Time for an update! Overall, good news I think, they're both still alive in any case. Lija's suggestion of an electrolyte bath seemed to work well. The footage over the next few days showed activity - not a huge amount, but perhaps more like what I would expect. I haven't actually seen feeding, but it's possible as there are a number of places in the vivarium not covered by the camera so that's inconclusive.
    The only small worry was yesterday morning after the lights came on I found the slightly smaller individual wondering around the floor looking emaciated and dehydrated. I went to grab the things I needed for another electrolyte bath but by the time I came back he/she had found the water bowl and was sitting in it so I poured the electrolyte solution in there instead. I didn't think he would last the day as he looked really unwell but to my surprise when I came home from work I found him sitting on the edge of the bowl looking really good again:



    I didn't take a 'before' photo, but trust me, he looked really bad.
    He hasn't moved a muscle since then and is still perched on the water bowl this morning 24 hours later. The other one also hasn't moved for a couple of nights:



    Really hard to tell what's going on with these guys. When in the roosting position, they both look really well (and quite chubby), but when walking around they look very thin and under nourished. I think it's clear that they are struggling to stay hydrated so for the moment I've switched the fan off completely and maintaining the humidity at 60% with the fogger and misting to see how we go. Feeding-wise it's possible they are eating and then sleeping for extended periods afterwards which I believe is normal behaviour? I'm going to try and set further cameras up to see if I can shed some light on this.

    Incidentally, as far as sexing is concerned. I was aware of the nose profile method with sauvagii, but I didn't know that applied to bicolor too. Here's a better shot of the profile of the slightly smaller one:



    To my untrained eye, looks like maybe I have one of each?

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Still struggling with these guys. They look constantly dehydrated to me. I gave them another electrolyte bath a few days ago after which the larger one sought out the higher of the two water bowls in the vivarium and soaked herself for a fair while afterwards. The smaller one just went back to sleep on the leaf I put him on until this morning when I found him on the floor looking unwell again and with partially sloughed skin. I gave him another electrolyte bath and put him back and this time this one sought out a water bowl and got in for a soak:











    Currently the fogger is set at 60%, the fan comes on for 15 mins three times a day and the automatic mister comes on for 45 seconds three times a day. The vivarium is big and the screen area is large so it's pretty dry in there (never any condensation). Can I possibly be keeping them too dry? Is that even likely with this species under these conditions? Really open to suggestions!

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    They look perfectly happy and healthy to me and yep, the pic of the one on your hand is a boy
    they don't look too skin either
    do they poop? You need to send it to do a fecal test and treat them after.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Also, you could make/buy an arboreal water dish

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    They look fine. I have had my 4 for a year now and had a rough start with them also, it took 4 months before they settled in and acted normal. They wouldn't eat on their own I had to force feed then they wouldn't poop, I had to also give electrolyte baths, at least yours don't have any wounds, mine were covered in them so on top of everything I had to treat those as well. They aren't too skinny, they do look thinner when they move around, I have one female that looks skinny but eats the same as the other female that looks really fat, they both move around the same amount so I guess some can be slimmer than others. I also have a male who is the smallest length wise but he is really fat and you would think he was a gravid female!(he's definitely not as he has called before) about the humidity issue... you don't have to worry about them being too dry, I think I mentioned it in a PM to you, I don't mist mine hardly ever, They have 2 x 75w heat lamps (exo terra swamp glo) and 1 x 35W Sun glo exo terra spot light the perches are about 12 inches below these bulbs. I also have a heat cable running underneath the tank as well. It gets about 28-32 degrees C in there and would be dry about 30-40%. I have read a lot that links higher humidity to health issues in these frogs. Because your enclosure is very tall you should try and incorporate a pool of water of some sort in the middle section of the tank like it was suggested. Don't go over board on these electrolyte baths either, everytime you handle these guys their stress levels go up and it will take them even longer to settle in. I covered the sides and front of the tank too for a month or so so they couldn't see out to see if it helped them feel more secure I think it may have helped but I can't say for sure, so maybe try that and leave them to it.

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    Default Re: Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

    Thanks for the input guys, I'm glad you think they look healthy. My concern for them stems from the death of the third member of the group a week after I got them and their behaviour (not moving, not eating, not pooping, not hydrating). Well, they have both found a water bowl at least once or twice each now, so that last point may be improving.
    I do have two water bowls in there, one is on the floor and the other is half way up (about a meter off the ground on the tree trunk). The male has located the floor bowl twice now and the female the higher one once so this is progress.
    Since my last update two days ago, the male has crawled out of the water bowl and has stayed motionless on the floor. A tree frog on the ground is worrying to me.


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