Problem with some squirrel Frogs.

[Iceni]

Hello people, I'm in search of some advice about squirrel frog.

Firstly I'd like to say I have a dumpy, and 2 fire bellys. They have been happily housed for a few months now with no problems at all. I'm not a frog expert But the Squirrels were recommended as a good step up to the final Poison darts i wish to keep in a few years.


Right, I got these frogs about 48 hours ago. I got 3 of them. They all looked healthy, The pet store got them in 7 days ago, they have been kept in the small container they were delivered in in the store. They have been fed and the pet store i got them from is one of the good pet stores where the shop is a mess because the guy spends all of his time looking after the animals rather than trying to keep things neat and tidy. He already has a house full of frogs fish and lizards so i have every confidence in his ability with these animals.

Anyway. I placed the three frogs in a small terrarium. The frogs are only small less than 1 inch in length so i wanted them in a smaller terrarium until they were at a size where i was confident they could find there food. The terrarium was set-up with a water bowl 2 inches deep filled with stones so the water was at a depth of less than 1/2 an inch at it's deepest points. There is no substrate in the tank. And there is a brand new synthetic plant in there as well.

Everything was washed before it went in in tap water, Including the tank, it's a 12x8x8 tank as a starter tank for them. Everything was then dried.

The water used in the tank after the initial cleaning had been left to stand for over 24 hours. Same in the same way i treat the water for the Dumpy firebellys and my fish to remove chlorine ect.

Anyhow, Within 36 hours 2 of the squirrels have died. 1 is still going strong. I can see no reason why these frogs should have died so early. There was no substrate to cause impaction, Either in my set-up or in the store container. The tank i used was clean Unused and washed. And the water was dechlorinated. I've fed them once with number 1 crickets ( very small just turning from clear).


The only thing i can think of that i might have done that has caused them to die is either stress or there is release agent still on the leaves of the Plant. Has anyone got any knowledge of this. If there is a silicone based contaminant on the plant how would i go about removing it. If it is suspected to be something else please tell me.



A brief note on the pet store, He will never receive an animal through the post. Or post an animal to a new owner, He makes all his animal collections in person, Or meets the breeders half way. All of his animals are healthy when sold. But even still a healthy frog should live for a few weeks at least before it dies of starvation. And i know this is not the case as i saw all 3 eating the first night i got them.


None of the Frogs were handled either. I placed there travel container into the New terrarium, and took the lid off. I did now want to risk anything with them.

Any advice is warmly welcomed


and here's a piccie of lardie my dumpy just for your pleasure. (Note there is no subtrate in his tank now, it was messy and he always spent more time in the jungle plants i got for him!)

[daydreaming]

what was the temp of the tank?

what was the humidity level?

are you sure that when you cleaned the tank all of the cleaning product was washed out as well?

was there any signs of stress? if they had been kept in the same container for 7 days maybe it was too much exposure for them.

otherwise there are still a few reasons why but maybe the frogs were just not as healthy as they had appeared to be.

also if the shop is dirty and unclean because he spends so much time looking after his animals what about cross contamination, dust. i do understand what you mean, but a less clean shop dosent always mean healthy animals.

[Iceni]

No the shop is very clean, It just looks like a mess! he stacks empty tanks in a corner, has limited storage space ect. But all of his animals are spot on. He doesn't normally stock frogs, But he does keep them at home. I think he keeps albino clawed, Firebellys, and a packman.



Temps could be an issue, I Keep my whites and these frogs on top of the fridge, The whites tank is normally between 21 and 26 degrees. But on the hotter days it has been up to 28 degrees.

The tanks is a sealed tank. with small vents in the top. It's actually a converted fish tank, with a black plastic canopy, The humidity levels upon them been added to the tank were very high, I gave the tank a full 1/2 litre of misting before the frogs were introduced, and they received more misting later that evening. There is enough humidity to cause full condensation in the tank when the evening temps drop.


As for the stress I'm thinking it could be a factor. It's hard to tell if a nocturnal animal is stressed in a shop as there normally sleeping in opening hours. I'm just wanting to be 100% sure I'm not doing anything grossly incorrect before I take this back to the shop.

[Kurt]

The tanks is a sealed tank. with small vents in the top. It's actually a converted fish tank, with a black plastic canopy, The humidity levels upon them been added to the tank were very high, I gave the tank a full 1/2 litre of misting before the frogs were introduced, and they received more misting later that evening. There is enough humidity to cause full condensation in the tank when the evening temps drop.

Treefrogs require good ventalation and this set-up does not appear to provide that. Also, you mentioned they had been kept in small containers that they had arrived in at the store. I assume we are talking about dehli cups, which also do not provide much ventalation. In my experience, treefrogs that are kept enclosures without proper ventalation have a tendency to wither away and die. This usually takes more than a week to happen.
I am guessing that stress, along with poor ventalation, and quite possibly an increased gastrointestinal parasite load due to the previously mentioned conditions, may have killed these frogs, but I can't say for sure. I would've had to observe them or examine them to be certain. Just FYI squirrel treefrogs, Hyla squirrela are wild caught, which would play into what I had just mentioned.

[John]

It's a tough one to guess what's going on here. Kurt may be right, and Daydreaming may be right too - both are equally likely. Another possibility is that they picked a disease at the pet store and you taking them home was the final nail in the coffin.

In any case, sorry for your loss - Squirrels are a nice little frog. I hope the last one makes it for you.

[Iceni]

Yeah that probably makes sense. I'll go in and have a word with the store owner and see if he can come up with a solution. chances are he will be able to have a word with the supplier and get the facts for me!

I'm almost certain these frogs haven't gotten a disease from the store, they were keps well away from the other frogs. The small container may well have been the problem tho, The first thing they did upon been relesed into the bigger tank was jump arround like looneys. They didn't seem to settle for about 45 minutes, i was fully expecting them to stay asleep and explore later.

[daydreaming]

also be aware that is your existing frogs have had any contact with the new frogs you may have a problem with your existing frogs esp if there was an underlined illness.

i would also say the vibrations from the fridge may not be such a good thing either they do normally prefer quiet areas. i keep my 3 wtf away from anything that invloves too much vibration. i know in the uk we have to dispose of fridges/freezers properly as they can give off chemicals and they do tend to be very hot where the pipes are.

[Kurt]

Dawn, you keep impressing me with your knowledge.

[Iceni]

The good news is we have ruled out any illness. The frogs are captive bred due to some laws in the uk that make it hard for wild caught frogs to be sold. I went into the shop and he admitted that upon arrival at his store 2 of the 8 he had ordered had died just like mine in 24 hours. There is apparently an illness that has been spreading that has caused a lot of problems and the shop i use actively endorses all measures to prevent the spread of this illness. He also will not trade in any animal that he suspects of been wild caught.

He has put it down to stress, and has gone so far as to place another of the same species, and replace the deceased. He also told me that it's nothing to do with the setup i was using just these frogs been skittish and susceptible the been stressed.

As for the fridge its a big heavy old kelvinator, As far as i have been able to tell it is almost silent and gives of no vibration i can feel when the compressor is on. I'll keep an eye on the 1 remaining STF to see if it stop eating. I fed him a minute ago after getting in from work late at night and he seemed active and feeding.

I've also placed an order for a pair of wire tops for the tanks to improve ventilation, there going to take a few weeks to arrive so in the meantime i will dremmel the tops of the existing lids and use some fruit netting we have for the raspberries! It should provide an imediate solution to the ventilation concerns that were raised

If i think the fridge is stressing the animals i will make provisions to have them moved to a quieter part of the house, I already have space upstairs but i like the see the frogs on a morning in the early morning sun! Makes me all happy to see the dumpys cute little face peering at me making the coffee!

[Kurt]

The good news is we have ruled out any illness. The frogs are captive bred due to some laws in the uk that make it hard for wild caught frogs to be sold.

This the first time I have ever heard of this species being captive bred. Unless this guy is a vet, I wouldn't rule out disease. Just be careful and make sure these frogs and anything they come in contact with do not come in contact with your other frogs. Quarantine them for a period of no less than 30 days, preferably in another part of the house.

I've also placed an order for a pair of wire tops for the tanks to improve ventilation, there going to take a few weeks to arrive

Excellent, but doesn't your local shop stock them?

Makes me all happy to see the dumpys cute little face peering at me making the coffee!

Your frogs make coffee? Mine only sit around and eat all day. You're so lucky!

[Iceni]

Excellent, but doesn't your local shop stock them?

not for the smaller size tanks i have, he always stocks a good selection of tanks and vivs, but he generally stock pre-constructed glass viv's and wooden vivs. The one i will buy eventually for the frogs will be one of these but funds for the minute will only permit modifying the tanks i already own. The tanks i have for the STF's are hand me downs from when we upgraded the firebellys enclosure, the firebellys currently have a 24x12x12 tank with a fixed acrylic shelf and 12 inches depth of water loaded with fish and snails. The firebellys love there tanks and all the animals are on a rotation to something bigger in the near future.

The tank the STF's are in atm is less than ideal. But it's better than a cheap plastic one that the cats can knock over. The rotation as i have planned will be the modification of a 24x12x12 for the whites so it stands on one end with a door and sealed lip. Then the STF will get the whites old tank till i can afford another 2 foot tank for the STF's. The actuall tanks i plan to use are reasonably priced but the deccing them out and getting them right should tripple the cost of each tank. there will need to be a water filter, and a depth of water at the bottom of each tank so i can use a waterfall feature, and bogwood, more silk plants, rocks ect all bump up the price.

I think it's one of the problems with using a smaller independant store over a higher turnover petstore, although his stock and knowlege are great sometimes a little DIY is needed as he only has the space for generic items rather than everything! He also isn't a dedacated frog store, in fact untill recently he wasn't stocking any frogs as there were no young frogs comming from his suppliers. Generally the store has a limited selection of reptiles, a good selection of fresh water fish (nothing marine or salt water as he doesn't trust those suppliers), and a few snakes, He will get inverts to order but does not stock them directly. The biggest problem he has tho is he has no warehouse or storage space in the store so he can only use a limited shop frontage to stock everything! so things do tend to be a little less animal specific from him!


That been said I'm also a firm beliver in making something fit for purpose rather than buying a ready made finished product.

This the first time I have ever heard of this species being captive bred. Unless this guy is a vet, I wouldn't rule out disease. Just be careful and make sure these frogs and anything they come in contact with do not come in contact with your other frogs. Quarantine them for a period of no less than 30 days, preferably in another part of the house.

i'll chase him up and see if i can get the breeder out of him.

Your frogs make coffee? Mine only sit around and eat all day. You're so lucky

I wish lardie wouldn't make tea for his grandmother! lazy fat blob of love he is!

[John]

It's extremely unlikely those frogs are captive bred.

[Iceni]

Hey people! I sorted out all my ventilation today, Going to keep an eye on the frogs for a few days to check humidity ect. I ended up taking the tops off the tanks and making a pond mesh screen with a few layers of pond mesh and securing it with cable ties. All the sharp bits are on the outside and it looks like a proper bodge job but at least there getting ventilation now. Just means i'll probably have to start keeping an eye out for a better terrarium sooner than i thought.

The lone squirrel frog is still doing well. No signs of stress or illness, He's chomping away on small crickets and his tank is damp and clean. I'm going to do a full clean out in the morning as he's been in the tank over a week now and without the ventilation the tank is a little foysty.

I'll try get some pictures up when i'm cleaning out the tanks and have the frogs in the open. I'm pretty sure taking piccies of a frog that size is going to be a nightmare without stressing them. so Don't be disappointed if i can't get any pics!

Thanks for all your help so far. I'll try keep you all posted on the progress.


As for the captive bred status of these frogs the store owner is 100% sure there captive bred. i know there is some doubt regarding this but i can't see how these animals could have a decent survival rate in long haul transport from the USA. I'll just have to believe him till i find proof to the contrary.

[John]

i know there is some doubt regarding this but i can't see how these animals could have a decent survival rate in long haul transport from the USA. I'll just have to believe him till i find proof to the contrary.

Wild caught amphibians travel all over the world for sale. In fact the majority of amphibians for sale are wild caught. If you have adult sized Hyla squirella then it is a safe bet that they are wild caught. The first rule of pet shops is that you don't believe the pet shops. And before you think that they don't lie about this kind of thing, I am very experienced with the British pet trade. There were a few captive bred Gray Treefrogs around recently (British Herpetological Supply was wholesaling them) but I don't remember any CB Hyla squirella.