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Thread: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

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    100+ Post Member monster's Avatar
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    Default Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    So I just wanted to let my fellow froggers know I brought lillypad to the vet Friday and found out she has water edema due to her kidneys, the vet figures she probably got it from when she was being kept at petsmart. They had her in a critter keeper in the water dragons enclosure letting them run all over box, one of the reasons I decided to get her, and she wasnt at right temps or anything. So the vet pretty much told me there is not much she can do, and she is a lot more experienced with lizards and reptiles and when it comes to amphibians she sees more turtles then frogs. She said she was sure from the xray and exam that's what it was. She said she is still moving and eating and the only way to make her feel better would be to release the fluid, and she said she wasnt seeming to affected and uncomfortable by it so she recommended soaking her for a couple hours at home in some clean spring water and when I feel she isn't looking comfortable anymore to bring her back and she will release the water. She also said that after getting rid of the water swelling that it will come back and will have to be done again, so that's why she would rather wait till she is really not doing well. So all and all she is abit swollen but is still moveing. So my question is I don't know if I got the proper advice so I figured I would ask my fellow froggers what they thought and what I can do for her. Is she going to die on me soon? Im really upset about this and just don't know what to do. When I bathed her the other day she shrunk abit but about an hour later she just went back to the way she was. I soaked her for about an hour. Oh and when I go back to the vet she said since we already did the consultation already and know whats wrong and we are just waiting that she will do it for free since I paid friday so that's some good news. Any advice would great.

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    100+ Post Member DVirginiana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Sorry to hear that As far as the advice being good, no one on here knows more than a vet. Besides, soaking never hurts and the frogs seem to like it.

    I would caution you that, from personal experience, you can end up spending a lot of money and still end up with a dead reptile or amphibian. The medical science just isn't all there for these animals. Sounds like you've got all that sorted out for now, but I'm just throwing it out there in case things start to get really expensive.
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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Thanks, and ya the spending a lot of money thing is something she had mentioned and that's why she suggested to wait till it was worse. That way I wasn't paying for it Friday and then again a couple weeks down the road. Do you know how long they can live like this? I will everything in my power to try and give her the best life she can while she is still with me.

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    idk how long they can live like that. I imagine it's like kidney failure in mammals; some can live for years with relatively few issues and some may only live two months.
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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Thanks again, im going to do some research and find out as much as I can about it and see if there is anything I can do to help extend her life abit. And again if anyone else has any suggestions to little home remedies that I could do to help her please feel free to share. Im going to give her another soak tonight and I think im going to put some pedilyte in it, try to give her a little boost. I will only do the 1:1 ratio.

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Hi Cory! Sorry your frog is not doing well . The organ damage to kidney's (and probably Lymph Hearts) is irreversible and caused by long term exposure to cold temps. The edema (specially around rear legs) is a symptom revealing renal failure. In extreme cases drainage is required and only a trained vet should do that.

    OK, now for the home remedies that can help. Keep temps 82-84F and let humidity drop a bit to the lower Pacman frog recommended range. Do not give bath to frogs in plain water; that will add to issue. Get some Epsom Salts at pharmacy and prepare a bath by adding 1 teaspoon per gallon of 80F dechlorinated tap. Let frog soak for 20 minutes daily and that should help with edema. Use a small critter keeper or plastic bowl with a holed up top for soaking filled to frog's chin level and cover with towel to reduce stress and keep water warm. Frog will get better from edema but be aware that organ damage is permanent and it will reduce it's normal lifespan. Good luck !
    Remember to take care of the enclosure and it will take care of your frog !​

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Hi, thanks you so much Carlos. I actually have some Epsom salts here already, im going to start tonight. And ya I know its irreversible I wish it wasn't, I just want to be able to keep her with me as long as I can. And when I go back to vet when she becomes less mobile and a lot worse she said she would drain it, that's what I meant by release it. She it would be very stressfull for her and if not needed now I could wait and come back. For the humidity do u think maybe about 70? And please don't think this is my doing I have had her temps and humidity correct since I have got her. Her previous conditions at the store were not great at all, like I said before the night I got her there was Chinese water dragon sitting right on top of her critter keeper because she was in there enclosure. I think the humidity read about 65% and the temp was about 74 to 75. And they don't use digital thermometers either. Thanks again, and now that I think about it she has never went to the bathroom without some help since I got her. I imagine this has a lot to do with it doesn't it? Oh and for the bath when u say don't give baths in plain water, I do use reptisafe. And I was told before for her not pooing to give her a warm bath. So have I just been making it worse?

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Hi Cory! Was approached by another moderator concerned about high levels of Mg salts could cause problems for frog. I know aquatic frogs are fine with it (i.e. ADFs) during fish treatments in tanks and appeared to help one local sick Pacman (not mine) that eventually did get better. Just letting you know there is a risk involved even if Epsom Salts help with edema. I would stop doing soaks if frog looks increasingly stressed during soak or as soon as edema goes down. If no effect on your Pacman after a couple days; might as well stop it too.
    Remember to take care of the enclosure and it will take care of your frog !​

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Is there another trick to get her to go poo? She has really never went to bathroom without the soak. She went on her own about a month ago and I was so shocked and happy it wasn't funny, but that was it. And this is a once a week sometimes I wait about a week and a half. Sometimes I have to use honey but most the time she goes on her own with the normal water. And thank you again, I think I learn something new everyday on this forum.

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    You need to separate two things, either the bath is to reduce the edema or to help him poop.

    I'll say this - a vet advise who suggested doing plain water soaks for renal edema is not exactly something I'd trust perhaps the diagnosis might be off too, but if it's is correct.. There is nothing really that can be done unfortunately.
    Can you pls post pic of the frog, how did that happen?
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Wouldn't honey soaks also help with that? They always work when Trevor looks a bit puffy; also help her to poo. My thinking was that the high number of ions from the honey would draw water out of the frog? It's also a bit safer than the epsom salts.

    I'm always hesitant to criticize when someone's got a vet's opinion, but I kind of agree with Lija. How can she be sure it's edema from kidney failure without doing bloodwork? I can see her saying it's probably that, but as far as I know there's no way to definitively diagnose kidney failure with an x-ray and external exam...
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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    If the edema is localized around rear legs and light touch result in a wave like skin movement; it's probably Kidney/Lymph Heart damage from chronic exposure to low temps .
    Remember to take care of the enclosure and it will take care of your frog !​

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Hi guys thanks for all the advice. Now im freaking out second guessing everything. If something sounds off about the vet im telling you everything she said to me and that's why I came here for advice. I wasn't sure if I got the right diagnoses so wanted to see what people thought on here. IM knew to the frog world. LIja I honestly don't know what happened, I have had my temps and stuff correct since I got her back in august and I have had nothing but problems with the pooping and now this. I try to take care of my pets like they were my kids, and I just feel lost now. When I got her she was not being housed in the proper environment. I will take some pics in abit and post them. Oh and now that I know this cant be diagnosed without blood work I will be calling the vet tomorrow and I will be asking some questions and I hope someone has some answers.

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mentat View Post
    If the edema is localized around rear legs and light touch result in a wave like skin movement; it's probably Kidney/Lymph Heart damage from chronic exposure to low temps .
    Makes sense.
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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Here are a few pics. Its her left side.
    Attached Images Attached Images     

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    So it's swollen more on left side . Does it moves like waves when you touch it? Is there any evidence of edema on right rear leg?
    Remember to take care of the enclosure and it will take care of your frog !​

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Cory, please dont take it the wrong way, im not criticizing or saying you were doing smth wrong, im just trying to collect history data to get sense of what's going on. It doesn't adds up for me. If you were keeping her in spot on everything, temps, humidity, supplementing proper foods and changing substrate in correct intervals smth else is going on. If it is renal failure due to her previous keeping conditions it would have happen long ago, not 4 months later, and on both sides evenly, however as Carlos pointed out location of edema would suggest renal problems, so we can't rule it out yet. That type of renal failure can also happen due to infection, not nessesarly low temps.

    So im thinking.... Infection? Parasites? Digestion problems? Reaction to smth in the environment?
    and looking at these last pics... What is it she is sitting on?
    Have you done fecal testing?
    how long it's going on, how she is eating/pooping during that period? How did she do that before? You mentioned she goes in water baths only, q - what are you feeding, how supplementing

    Ill look up your other thread tomorrow, gotta go sleep now, but be back tomorrow.

    and if you are going to call the vet, can you ask if she can ask a lab to make a hypertonic amphibian solution for you, and how much will it cost, I'll get a recipe for you if needed.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    Hi again lija, she is sitting on a towel and now that I think of it that probably isn't all that great. I have only done this a couple times for pictures thinking it was better then putting her right on the table. Never really thought of it until u just asked, but I will stop. That was serious brain fart on my part, should have known better. And now that I have calmed down abit, I have a sick frog, sick dog with allergies and both kids got the flu l.o.l and have been able to think there was an incident me and carlos I believe had a conversation about last week. I had a feeding incident a couple months back were she grabed the end of the tongs and me being new went to pull the tongs away and she held on. When she let go she fell about six inches into her water dish. She honestly seemed fine afterwards so I thought nothing of it. Sorry this wasn't mentioned earlier just have a lot on my mind. When I first got her I got my vet for my dog to send a fecal sample out to the lab she uses and it came back negative for parasites. She said she doesn't do reptiles and amphibians but the fecal test she could help me on. I asked her if the lab would know what its looking for and she said yes, they deal with reptile and amphibians just she didn't. The vet I went to on Friday looked at some stool and said she couldn't see anything but im starting to not trust her opinion. I feed her nightcrawlers and a couple small horns during the month, 1 hornworm every couple weeks. She wont eat crickets and I don't know what else to give her, is that ok for food? When I first got her I fed her everyday for the first month, I would do calcium and d3 one night, no supplements the next then calcium with d3 and then the multivitamin on Friday or the weekend then back to the start. Then I fed her every second day with the same schedule just with 2 day inbetween. For about the last month and a half its been every 3 days. Now it goes calciumand d3, then nothing andthenthe multivitamin. She is still eating and moving around and she feels soft and squishy. And Lija I know u weren't criticizing me and if it came of that way im sorry, Im just very tired and frustrated. And yes I will ask for that prescription forsure. And it was swimminsteve I had the converstion with, it wasn't carlos. I need some sleep!!

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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    If this were the result of an injury, I'd expect to see some sign that the frog was injured before months had passed. This may be the result of something that was done, or your frog could just be unlucky; not every disease has a definite cause we can pinpoint.
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    Default Re: Swollen leg update, need advice!!

    No, if it's injury edema would have happened right after or in a few days max, not 2 months later.
    parasites are negative, you can trust that one, it's ether here or not, can't really miss it.
    Feeding, supplementing - ok.

    Okay, can you please take some more pictures, more clear ones, including underbelly and back legs. Please describe :
    how long it is going on, how have you noticed? Is there any changes in edema over the duration of the problem, got bigger/smaller/same? Did anything else changed - behaviour, eating, pooping. Do you see that it influenced her in any way- harder to move?
    The q you didnt answer - how often do you clean the tank? How often do you change the water, type of water?

    You were saying she goes only in water bath, would you please describe how does it look like exactly - water? How long? Temp? How often? Does she goes on her own while in a bath or you massage her sides?

    another question - can you try to feel her sides? Left? And right? Don't squish her much, but just try to feel inside, gently! What you feel, pls describe.

    as of now I'm going with localized infection, possibly in digestive tract ( not pooping on her own very often lead to enlargement of the colon and consequitive infection, and vise versa, not pooping in her own often is related to anatomical structure of the colon, when it is enlarged). the location of the edema ( left side) is also suggesting that.
    I doubt it's a renal problem. With any kidney or any other systemic problem edema is happening evenly on both sides, here we see very clearly differentiated left side, not so much the right one. Is it how it is? Or it just looks like it on the pics?
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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