Lija

[Frogfeet123]

Mainly for Lija, but any others can comment too.

So, people say you are experienced and could really help me as we both are in Calgary area. So I have a few questions.

First off, I will start with terrarium and set up.

1) right now, I have them in a 18x24x18. They seem happy, but I will upgrade in future as they get bigger. Your thoughts?

2) substrate. So I have coco fibre with a top layer of moss. This one really confuses me because some tell me it's okay and others say no. I'm at a loss here. Anything similar to moss but less dangerous you could suggest?

3) humidity and temperature. The humidity is 40-60% all the time. Temperature is 75-80 f on cool side, and basking spot is 82-85 f. Sound good?

4) water. I do a water change with treated water every day. ( honestly the best water you can get!) and I spray them a few times daily.

5) food. Crickets every 2-3 days and fed them each a pinkie a while ago. The crickets get flukes gel water but I get the yellow stuff because it has the added calcium and vitamins in it and then I don't need to dust them. I feed them a mix of lettuce, carrots and cabbage. They seem to do really well on it. I feed them in a separate container from their terrarium to lessen risk of impaction.

6) health. Fecal tests. Where do I get them and for how much? Any symptoms to watch for?

7) handling. Yes, I handle my frogs, because Betty in particular seems to enjoy it. She will climb onto my hand and make herself comfortable. Sally sometimes will do this, but other times will shrink away from me if I offer my hand to her. In which case, I won't handle her if she's not feeling it

8) any other additional comments?

Would really like to solve conflict between us and move on, I hope you can agree to do the same



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Frogfeet123]

Also, just wanted to add that I'm sorry for not using pm or if posting too much, I'm really bad with tech stuff and I just don't know how to use it very well. I know it's in the rules so sorry.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Frogfeet123]

Oops, just had to edit my tank size: 24x18x18


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Lija]

Every single question here i have already answered, so did the bunch of other people. Please refer to your other threads.

[Frogfeet123]

Could you please answer them again? So I can get specific answers to these questions? Thanks


2 whites tree frogs

[deranged chipmunk]

Mainly for Lija, but any others can comment too.

So, people say you are experienced and could really help me as we both are in Calgary area. So I have a few questions.

First off, I will start with terrarium and set up.

1) right now, I have them in a 18x24x18. They seem happy, but I will upgrade in future as they get bigger. Your thoughts?

2) substrate. So I have coco fibre with a top layer of moss. This one really confuses me because some tell me it's okay and others say no. I'm at a loss here. Anything similar to moss but less dangerous you could suggest?

3) humidity and temperature. The humidity is 40-60% all the time. Temperature is 75-80 f on cool side, and basking spot is 82-85 f. Sound good?

4) water. I do a water change with treated water every day. ( honestly the best water you can get!) and I spray them a few times daily.

5) food. Crickets every 2-3 days and fed them each a pinkie a while ago. The crickets get flukes gel water but I get the yellow stuff because it has the added calcium and vitamins in it and then I don't need to dust them. I feed them a mix of lettuce, carrots and cabbage. They seem to do really well on it. I feed them in a separate container from their terrarium to lessen risk of impaction.

6) health. Fecal tests. Where do I get them and for how much? Any symptoms to watch for?

7) handling. Yes, I handle my frogs, because Betty in particular seems to enjoy it. She will climb onto my hand and make herself comfortable. Sally sometimes will do this, but other times will shrink away from me if I offer my hand to her. In which case, I won't handle her if she's not feeling it

8) any other additional comments?

Would really like to solve conflict between us and move on, I hope you can agree to do the same



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

i'll answer a few:

1. i do believe there may have been a typo in the original post when discussing your tank. i remember seeing one of the dimensions listed as 12". which is why i got upon my high horse about sizing. so i do apologize about that. 24x18x18 is "acceptable" for a pair of white's. i know you gals kept referring to 33 gallons, but with frogs, dimensions are more important than volume. a 24 or 36" tall tank would be preferable to them. but since they are going from a rainforest to a tank, 6" is not a disaster. that being said, if you still want to add a third, a larger enclosure is a must. the largest you have space for and can afford would make them much more comfortable.

2. this is one that drives me nuts. i have seen way too many posts of impacted white's due to ingesting moss. the moss tends to be a crutch for those who can't reliably keep humidity levels stable, but it's not very difficult to do. you just need to seal the tank more. if someone isn't able to modify their tank, then i suggest using the moss, but only under a healthy layer of leaf litter. i think the problem is that people think "tree frog" and their thoughts go to the canopy, like an retf. but white's are more like gray's, they are a lower level tree frog. they live from the ground level up. in their natural habitat, they live just like grays and american green tree frogs do, near, on and around homes, near ponds, at levels where they are easily caught by us. now, in the rainforests where they live, the ground is covered in leaf litter. there is no moss like that. just take a stroll through your local wooded area and look down, you are walking on leaf litter. it's purely more natural for them, and safer

3. white's have such a wide range in their natural habitat, that pinning down one way of keeping them (as far as humidity and temp), is difficult. many people keep them as you do, some don't. i kept them in near dart frog conditions for years without issue. there just is no one correct way. the humidty you keep them at, however, i question. but i question most humidity levels. are you using an analog or digital hygrometer? because the old analog (dial style) a notoriously inaccurate.

4. water is perfect

5. food seems to be right on target. not a fan of feeding in a separate enclosure, but that is just me.

6. fecals, Lija needs to help on this one, since she's one of your fellow Canucks.

7. handling, i'm just not a big fan of. i think it stresses them too much and opens them up to a whole lot of pathogens that their bodies are not equipped to deal with. once you remove a frog from it's enclosure, it is susceptible to ANYTHING airborne or on a surface they may rest on, whatever. at least in their tank, yes, airborne items can still get through, it's just more difficult to get to them.

8. my only other comment is enjoy the frogs and their whimsical character. gain and develop more experience. and mostly, don't confuse knowledge, with experience. there's a saying i use: i can research all i want about cancer, however, that does not make me an oncologist. research and reading is good, but there is a LOT of misinformation out there. it's difficult to weed out the good from the bad. talk to experienced keepers. find out their experiences. that truly is the best way to learn.

Bill

[Frogfeet123]

Thank you so much! do you think I could get by with the tank I have now until they get bigger? Betty is 3 inches, Sally 2 1/2 inches. I will definitely upgrade when they get bigger,cut do you think it would be okay for 3 small frogs until they get bigger?

I was going to try the leaf litter, I had never heard of it before but it sounds like a good idea.

Yes, I question my analog hygrometer sometimes... Are digital ones better?

I know there is a lot of conflict on handling. I just try to keep a good balance with handling, not too much, but sometimes.

When I first got my frogs I didn't think they would have so much character! It's so cute! I'm always reading websites and opinions from every possible source I can find.

Again, thanks for replying!


2 whites tree frogs

[deranged chipmunk]

honestly, i would wait on adding a third frog until you have a bigger tank. unless you get one close to the same size, you are going to need to rear it a bit to get it bigger before adding it in with the established frogs. the tank you currently have could be used for that. if you set up the new tank, then move the pair, you free up the current tank to rear the new one in until it is large enough to join the other 2. if you get one the same size, then they should be in a bigger tank.

digital ones are much more accurate. you just need to be mindful of the probe. if it gets water in it, it can send the readings out of whack. but they are indeed much more accurate than the cheapo analog ones they sell at the stores.

white's are full of character. i did enjoy having them. no frog has made me laugh more, but also, no frog has driven me nuts like they did either. especially my male. he kept me up all hours of the night and he was 2 floors away from me. LOL

[Mentat]

...
5) food. Crickets every 2-3 days and fed them each a pinkie a while ago. The crickets get flukes gel water but I get the yellow stuff because it has the added calcium and vitamins in it and then I don't need to dust them. I feed them a mix of lettuce, carrots and cabbage. They seem to do really well on it. I feed them in a separate container from their terrarium to lessen risk of impaction...

Fluker's Yellow gel with CA is not a replacement for supplement dusting. You still have to dust with CA/D3 and vitamins on different days weekly. Can find sample schedules in here: http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html.

Do not feed frog feeders (i.e. crickets) any cabbage. Romaine lettuce and carrots plus cherios cereal are fine .

[deranged chipmunk]

Thanks for correcting that Carlos much appreciated, my friend


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[Strider18]

Fluker's Yellow gel with CA is not a replacement for supplement dusting. You still have to dust with CA/D3 and vitamins on different days weekly. Can find sample schedules in here: http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html.

Do not feed frog feeders (i.e. crickets) any cabbage. Romaine lettuce and carrots plus cherios cereal are fine .

I believe that I linked her that post already Carlos, thanks for reposting it!

0.0.1 PCf
Soon to come 0.0.4 Phyllobates bicolor

[irThumper]

For my own knowledge, how about sweet potato or yam? I heard before this that carrots were fine for crix so wondered about other root vegies. Also is frozen (thawed) vegies ok or do they need to be fresh unfrozen only?

[elly]

I use raw sweet potatoes fairly often. They seem to do okay and I know they have vitamins. As for the thawed veggies, they might be a little too high in water? I don't know.

[irThumper]

I use raw sweet potatoes fairly often. They seem to do okay and I know they have vitamins. As for the thawed veggies, they might be a little too high in water? I don't know.

Hmm, true... I have quite a few bags of frozen broccoli, cauliflower, carrot mixed frozen vegies for making soup, so thought I'd ask

[Frogfeet123]

Good idea about the tank! Thanks for the the great suggestion!

Mentat, thank you for informing about the calcium/ vitamin situation,I was not aware.

May I ask why cabbage is bad?

Thanks all for your helpful replies!


2 whites tree frogs

[irThumper]

To my knowledge head lettuces are some of the most highly pesticide laden vegies out there, not sure if that's the reason on the cabbage but it's a reasonable assumption. Confirmation, anyone?

[elly]

From here:

"Cruciferous vegetables in excess can cause problems such as goiter, while spinach contains oxalates that may interfere with calcium." (Emphasis mine.)

This is the only info I've found about cabbage being bad so far. I don't have time for a major search today. I've also turned up links that potatoes may not be great, but only if A: they're allowed to mold or B: the crickets eat potato stems or leaves.

[elly]

On the bright side I know that some wild greens like dandelion and violet leaves are edible and nutritious (though they may have oxalates like spinich, not sure), but you'd want to make certain that they've not been exposed to defoliant or pesticides. No weeds from the roadside!

[Lady]

I am fairly new to frog keeping myself. Only had my one Azureus Dart Frog for a few months. If not for the people here I would not be doing as good as I am with her. So take the kind advice and may you frogs live long happy lives.

[irThumper]

From here:

"Cruciferous vegetables in excess can cause problems such as goiter, while spinach contains oxalates that may interfere with calcium." (Emphasis mine.)

This is the only info I've found about cabbage being bad so far. I don't have time for a major search today. I've also turned up links that potatoes may not be great, but only if A: they're allowed to mold or B: the crickets eat potato stems or leaves.

After reading this I think I'll stick to yams, carrots and apples for the crickets and leave the frozen broccoli-cauliflower mix for the soup!