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Thread: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

  1. #41
    100+ Post Member irThumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Pogo's mom- I'm very glad you are willing to help him to have a better life! I'm sure his past owner thought she was doing everything right for him, sadly it wasn't the case. If you have a large rectangular shallow glass baking dish you could use that for his 20 minute Pedialyte soak sessions (never leave him unattended!) and see if he's willing to move around some while in the solution. Don't do anything to stress him though, be gentle and give him time. I really really hope he pulls through and look forward to reading his updates

    Oh and I'd put a bigger tank on your Christmas wish list *coff*

    These are my White's tree frogs, so we're both White's moms
    http://www.frogforum.net/members/irthumper-albums-white-s-tree-frogs-irthumper-picture74416-honey-shirley-sheila-jelly-bean-10-12-14.jpg
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    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


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  3. #42
    FrogsFascinated
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Hi - this is FrogsFascinated mom. Wanted to clarify a couple things and see if it changed any suggestions. Pogo was very healthy and active up until about a week - ten days ago. He would hop from his mossy area into the water, up on the rocks and back to the dry spot. He had a great appetite. The weather has cooled a bit recently and I originally thought it was the lower temps that caused some of the changes we saw. I agree he could have more room, however he has been in this set up for ten years and has been healthy. His first owner was a science professor and kept a variety of reptiles and amphibians. I trusted after ten years she had figured out a healthy program for Pogo. As my daughter mentioned we adopted him with hand written instructions from his first owner which we have been following. So while it may not have been the best arrangement it was consistent. The two pet supply stores we have consulted with have also recommended the superworms. We have well water not treated city water. When he slowed down a bit and showed less interest in the worms we started to research more online to see if there were any changes we could make for him. We purchased a heat lamp and new UVB bulb and a powdered Ca+ supplement to put the worms in. His paralysis was sudden onset, moving around fine one day and the next day has no control over back legs at all. The legs also have become swollen on the top half and he is bloated, not obese. I'll give you chubby but he has become much larger in the last week. His prolapse was more pronounced this time and the mucosa was very irritated, with the bloating of his legs and body I am concerned with a blockage. Gave him a mini enema after replacing the prolapse to make sure all was where it belonged and he did pass a few harder pieces of stool. His bath and feeding time is in a basin the size of a small litter pan and is used only for pogo, not dishes or other cleaning purposes. All suggestions are appreciated. This pic was before he was so bloated.
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  4. #43
    100+ Post Member irThumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Hi FF's mom I'm going to stick with what's already been suggested here. These guys do a lot of climbing around in the wild as they stalk their prey, and most folks do not give them nearly enough room in their captive habitat (not sure there is such a thing as too large of a tank for a captive White's). He's needed way more space than just to hop from the moss to the water to the rocks and back again. I won't feed superworms to my guys, too much fat & too hard to digest. Wax worms are soft and easy to digest but again very fatty, so have no place in this guy's diet. I'd go with what's been suggested as far as earthworms and crickets gut loaded on healthy vegies and a high calcium cricket chow goes. He needs exercise to keep him regular too, that and the earthworms are more digestible and should be easier to pass.

    How did you treat the prolapse and replace it? I just went through this with my young White's, sHEila (turned out she was a he), and it was recommended here that I use a slurry of white sugar and conditioned spring water on the tissue to help it recede. It worked wonderfully and saved a lot of stress and pain for sHEila. I'm still keeping a watchful eye on him. These pics were taken before I found out about using the sugar.
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    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


  5. #44
    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Ok let me say this for the last time.
    1. A frog is dying
    2. The prognosis is really bad
    3. A frog is still alive, so it's not too late yet.
    4. Instead of looking for excuses you better try to save him.

    its your choice to take an advise or carry on whatever you are doing. Ultimately you are the owner now, the decisions and choices are yours now.

    My last advise for you - take him to a vet asap. That would be better then consult over the Internet. The frog is dying.
    Last edited by Heatheranne; November 15th, 2014 at 04:27 PM.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

  6. #45
    FrogsFascinated
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    irThumper - We are beekeepers so I used raw honey with distilled water and a qTip. The sugar/honey helps reduce the edema in the mucosa and the padded qtip allowed us to replace the prolapse with little trauma to the frog.

    Lija - no one is making excuses, I simply stated that while his conditions were not optimal before he was healthy and active. As soon as we realized he was not doing well we have actively made changes for him that will hopefully allow him to recover and get back to 100% again. It is pointless to move him to new accommodations while he is unable to use his hind legs once he is recovered and moving about we will address that as well. Through local sources we have have received poor advice, I was hoping to find better advice to help Pogo on this forum not criticism for how someone else was raising him. I never claimed to be an expert concerning the White's and am open to gaining knowledge from those that have had more experience. I don't appreciate the sarcasm for trying to do right for our pet.
    Thanks to those who have given suggestions for better diet options. When his appetite improves I hope he enjoys his new fare.

  7. #46
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Hi all. I have read through all of the posts and comments.

    I see a few health ailments going on here. The frog is both obese and edematous. There can be several different issues to tend to. Please bare with me as I assess each one and try to help.

    Please remember, this is only to help. However the frog was cared for prior has not been good for this frog. I do not know the frogs previous owner, but I have worked closely with a herp vet over the last 4 years and also some very knowledgeable breeders. Please keep in mind, at this point it does not matter. All that matters now is that we help to get your frog healthy.

    I'll number so it's easy to follow:

    1. The frog is obese at an unhealthy level. He will soon progress into lymph heart failure, kidney failure and lipid keratpoathy in which he will also loose his eye sight.

    To correct this situation I would not feed him super worms, waxworms, or mealworms. The chitin in their segments are like popcorn shells and cannot breakdown, leading to intestinal impaction, prolapse, and intestinal infections. Waxworms and super worms are like eating McDonald's every day. No nutritive value.

    Healthy food choices are night crawler pieces of proper size. They are also soft and easy to digest . They are a good source of protein.

    2. The trauma to the frog could have caused some circulation compromise. Monitor his limbs for movement, swelling, and discoloration.

    3. Edema (swelling): ugh! This poor fella. He is so obese it's difficult to determine how much is edema. Edema occurs when the frog has improper electrolyte balance, trauma, or kidney failure. Lack of protein can also cause fluid shifts. Lack of nutrition and supplements can be corrected.

    4. All captive bred frogs need supplements. This has been studied over and over. Captive bred diets are limited compared to that in the wild. Insects feast on healthy green plants that supply vitamins and calcium. The sun provides them with the vitamin D3 they need to properly absorb the calcium ingested. In captivity we must provide this for them.

    Calcium with vitamin D3 should be lightly dusted on their food every other feeding.

    Symptoms of lack of calcium in the body: numbness, tingling, twitching, tremors, lack of muscle control, weakness, paralysis and seizures, lack of intestinal motility, heart dysrhythmias. It limits all types of muscle functions including skeletal, cardiac, smooth muscle/visceral. This is because without calcium the impulses to move them are not functional.

    Multivitamins for amphibians are also required. We all need small amounts of minerals and vitamins for vital body functions, such as potassium, magnesium, sodium and others. Amphibian MVI's are made specifically for them in proper concentrations. Repashy brand is the best one out there at the present time. Id recommend you use it as a light dusting once a week. Do not over do at this time as I am highly suspicious that this frog is possible having lymph and kidney issues. We don't want to overdose him either.

    Pedialyte soaks: they are very helpful in redistributing proper electrolytes in sick and unhealthy amphibians. We are lucky in that they are like little sponges or blood vessels and can absorb through their skin. This is a temporary fix. The goal is to regain his health through proper nutrition.

    5. Diet: this is a tough thing. We don't want to starve him but need to make healthier choices. Starving him will cause muscle wasting and more swelling. The goal is to feed better and just a bit less at a time.

    Good gracious, I've written so much I need to read back through . I'll add more in just a few minutes.
    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203589094112277&id=1363241107&set =a.1434844115446.2055312.1363241107&source=11&ref= bookmark

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  9. #47
    100+ Post Member Louis Charles Bruckner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    I would be more worried about the stress on the poor fellow more than drowning.


    Quote Originally Posted by irThumper View Post
    Hydrotheraphy... that gives me an idea. How about assisted swimming...? It's worked for other critically obese pets.... she'd have to help him with a hand under him, but maybe...?

    Here's some inspiration, Obie the obese Doxie, https://www.facebook.com/BiggestLoserDoxieEdition



  10. #48
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Please keep in mind, we only wish to help .

    Okay...

    6. Water: all water should be chlorine, chloramine, and heavy metal neutralized. It depends on the water you use. If your water has these chemicals or heavy metals, it should be dechlorinated and neutralized with a amphibian safe solution. This should be for all water bowls and for moistening substrates. Never use soaps or chemicals. You can use very hot water for rinsing bowls and then rinse again in dechlorinated water.
    The only time you should use bleach is when decontaminating infected tanks or equipment and it must be thoroughly reversed with dechlorinator. And only 10% bleach, rinse, then soak in at least 4x the amount of usual dechlorinator.

    Water bowls should be rinsed and new water added daily. Ponds should have a filter and water changes should be weekly.

    7. Temps: mid to upper 70's at night. Day time should have a basking spot of around 80-82'F. The frogs will bask to aid in metabolism and digestion.

    8. Humidity: 50-70%. Never over 80's for any extended period of time as this species has a tendency towards respiratory infections.

    9. Exercise: this is a tough topic. With this little sweetie, it's going to be very difficult to encourage activity in his condition. We don't want to stress him either. He will move around as he is able. The best thing to do is to change his habits and hope he improves. A wider soak dish might encourage some movement, but be sure the water is no deeper than his chin when sitting and be careful.

    10. Handling and stress: handling causes stress. Stress weakens their immune system. This allows for opportunistic infections. Minimize handling and keep his home in a nice quiet area.

    11. Prolapses: it would be a good idea to have his feces tested for parasites and eggs. My first guess as to why he is having prolapses is the difficultly digestion the super worms. Another common cause is intestinal parasites. The test is fairly inexpensive and easy. Just send a fresh feces sample in a new baggie to Dr. Frye' office with a paper staying the rest you'd like done. You can either send a check or pay over the phone it's around $20. We'd be happy to share his info if you'd like it?

    I'm sure I have missed something. I'll swing back later to check for responses.

    Lija, Mentat, Der Chipmunk, and others have given you good info.

    Please don't feel criticized or offended. We are here to help. The frog's previous owner was misled. We can teach the proper care .

    Hey, this fella has a slim chance. Let's give him that. He is just a sweet victim of fault. Sometimes our adoptive frog parents have not been given the right guidance either. We have to remember the frogs are why we are all here .
    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203589094112277&id=1363241107&set =a.1434844115446.2055312.1363241107&source=11&ref= bookmark

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  12. #49
    100+ Post Member irThumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Awesome info, Heather, and great for everyone who owns White's to keep in mind!
    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


  13. #50
    FrogsFascinated
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Hello Heather! Thanks for the information! We are planning to change his diet once his appetite is back, and will definitely use night crawlers instead of superworms.

    I know you all think he is severely obese but he's really not... he's become bloated and "Puffy" within this week and a half that he's been sick.

    Pogo is starting to look a little better, as he seems more perkier now and is looking a little more like himself (Skin isn't changing crazy green colors anymore) aside from the paralysis.

    My mom made up a solution with some water and the powdered calcium supplement and he gets a little bit of that daily, and we got the pedialyte (Non flavored) for him to soak in and he got his first bath in that yesterday. Throughout the day I will drizzle some of the water from his little pond to keep him moist, because who wants a dried up froggy

    I'll keep you guys updated, thanks again!

  14. #51
    100+ Post Member irThumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    A much easier way to keep him moist is to get a fine mist spray bottle, like the kind you find in garden centers for spraying plants, and mist him and his tank (with treated water, of course).

    You don't happen to have any other before pics of him do you? It's not like folks don't believe what you are saying about the edema, but there's also excessive supratympanic ridge development, which often occurs when they are overweight.

    This is a page out of the book "The General Care and Maintenance of White's Tree Frogs and White-Lipped Tree Frogs" by Philippe de Vosjoli (The Herpetocultural Library, 1990) which illustrates what I mean... the pic shows an extreme case

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    The back cover of "White's Tree Frogs" by John Coborn (TFH, 1994) shows Australian White's in their native habitat in the wild, I believe, to compare normal weight (love that pinto/pied one!)

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    The next pics are in pages from the book "White's and White-Lipped Tree Frogs: Facts & Advice on Care and Breeding (Full Color Photos)" by R.D. Bartlett and Patricia Bartlett (Barron's Reptile Keeper's Guides, 2001) they show an overweight adult female White's and a normal weight young male White's.

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    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


  15. #52
    FrogsFascinated
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Those book pages are interesting! I'll flip through my phone pictures and see if I have an old picture, My profile pic right now was an old one, and I think I have one when we first got him.

    He doesn't look nearly as sickly as the frog in the first photo, much more alert and happier looking.

    I'm giving him the calcium manually, is that good for him and will it help, or would it be better on food when his appetite is back?

    He's gotten 2 pedialyte baths so far, for about half an hour each time. Is that time long enough, or too long?

    The misting bottle idea is cool too! If I happen to have a bottle on hand, I'll try it!

    Is there anything else I should be doing, besides keeping him moist, daily pedialyte baths, daily calcium supplements (Only a little not a super large amount), and when he needs it I help him get his shedding skin off because he can't reach around to do that anymore since he's bloated.


    Thanks!!!

    ~Emily (And Pogo )

  16. #53
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Is he eating at all now?
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  17. #54
    FrogsFascinated
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    He's not for the time being, we need to find a place to get worms, unless getting them from our backyard is okay, although we've been diligently trying to find something. Is there anything else that would work, that's a nice soft diet with the protein that he needs???

  18. #55
    100+ Post Member elly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    There may be something else but I haven't heard of it. In many places, Wal-Mart is still selling nightcrawlers for fishing. Or you could try a bait shop (just not dyed worms or red wrigglers.) I'm going to cautiously say garden/ compost worms are okay (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but you want to make sure they're from a place that hasn't had insecticide.

  19. #56
    FrogsFascinated
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    Lightbulb Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Thanks Elly!!! My family and I are also beekeepers so we don't use insecticides/pesticides anyways, it could harm the bees too.

    I was wondering, would it help at all if I made a video of what I do for Pogo on a daily basis? I figured that might help sum up all my posts into one big thing to maybe clear stuff up, and plus I like making videos and putting them together

    Oh and one more thing, if I do make a video, would I have to post it on Youtube so I'd have a link, or can I upload one from my laptop just in my files?

  20. #57
    dj1
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Quote Originally Posted by elly View Post
    There may be something else but I haven't heard of it. In many places, Wal-Mart is still selling nightcrawlers for fishing. Or you could try a bait shop (just not dyed worms or red wrigglers.) I'm going to cautiously say garden/ compost worms are okay (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but you want to make sure they're from a place that hasn't had insecticide.
    I no longer keep WTF I did over 20 years ago, but still keep other anurans. and have done since I was 8 yrs old, i'm now 53.........
    I wouldn't use the brandling or tiger worms found in compost heaps,or at least they are hear in the UK they are quite acidic and don't smell very pleasant, not many amphibians will eat them. Dig a piece of ground over and collect some worms that way, or put damp cardboard/carpet on wet ground and keep it damp and see what turns up.

  21. #58
    FrogsFascinated
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Thank you dj1, that was my plan. There's lots of places in my yard that are great for worms, since they stay moist but not drenched and if I dig up just a little portion of ground there are many worms.

    Would it be a good idea to maybe make a box like shape out of plywood or use a bucket and put dirt in it, with some worms, as winter is coming and I don't think worms will be as abundant as in spring/summer/fall and I'd like to have a plethora of worms for Pogo once he gets his appetite back.

  22. #59
    100+ Post Member elly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Hmm, googling says that red worms/ red wrigglers and tiger worms are the same thing:Eisenia fetida , so we have those in the US too. I know they've been introduced here, but I don't know how widespread they are.

  23. #60
    100+ Post Member elly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

    Quote Originally Posted by FrogsFascinated View Post
    Thank you dj1, that was my plan. There's lots of places in my yard that are great for worms, since they stay moist but not drenched and if I dig up just a little portion of ground there are many worms.

    Would it be a good idea to maybe make a box like shape out of plywood or use a bucket and put dirt in it, with some worms, as winter is coming and I don't think worms will be as abundant as in spring/summer/fall and I'd like to have a plethora of worms for Pogo once he gets his appetite back.
    If earthworms straight from the garden are okay that should be fine. Although you might want to use the bucket instead of plywood. Or at least some untreated wood to build the box. Some kinds of plywood have a lot of chemicals in it that might get released when it starts breaking down.

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