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Thread: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

  1. #1
    Fabrizio
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    Default Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    (excuse me for double post - I can't find how to cancel it)
    Hello, my new-bought Polypedates leucomystax have severe rostral abrasion, at least this seems to be the cause for subsequent infection they developed.
    I bought 3 back in November, the male had a small lesion on his lip and I trated with blue-methylene. then Baytril; he healed. The female (and another male) had ''smooth'', patch-like lesions that soon toke an ulcerated look, like flesh-eating disease. Despite several antibiotics (powder - Ampicilline, Bactrim, Gentamycin as cream, and Trimetoprim orally), she died after a month. I was suggested and gave a pain-killer too, Metacam, but I read here it could be lethal!
     
    -I bought these further 2 Polypedates 10 days ago, and almost nothing I could notice at beginning.
    Later, I noticed two very small points on male's head, that 2 days after evolved in the same smooth patches.
    I treated him in the last 3 days with silver sulphadiazine cream (he removed that with all 4 limbs), but he died today He looks very ''skinny'' (perhaps dehydrated?)
    -The female is still alive and not skinny, but her lesions are a bit different. More clear and deep rostral lesion, and a ''dark point'' (a previous lesion's result?) on her head.
    I'm worried this could become a flesh-eating disorder, too...
     
    -All I gave her since now, is Aloe gel on the rostral area ( to help healing,and it should have antibiotic effects in addition), and silver sulphadiazine on her head.
    -I could put liquid Baytril in her bathing basin ( a small lid), I know doses but how to be sure how much water = Baytril she will actually absorb?
    Better to drop a Baytril solution directly on the affected area?
    SHe is placed in a neat box, only dry absorbing paper on the bottom, a sterilized smooth wood and water lid, plus a gentle heat mat underside.
     
    Should I put silver sulphadiazine on the rostral area, too, instead of Aloe gel?
    I read here about Neosporin, yet I can't find it here in Italy: the nearest product is Streptosil, yet it lacks Polymyxin-B, I don't know how much that could reduce its effects.
     
    -Finally, how about Gentamicyn cream? It failed with the previus frog yet I had tried it at the very last...
     
    Here, some pictures along the days, for you to understand better :
     
    Male, 24 March
    http://i62.tinypic.com/2uoq2pd.png
     
    Male, 31 March
    http://i57.tinypic.com/2j4y2cg.png
     
    Female, 26 March
    http://i58.tinypic.com/b9hk6x.png
     
    Female, 28 March (begun Aloe);
    http://i61.tinypic.com/2mrw7ib.png
     
    Female, 29 March
    http://i59.tinypic.com/2iau0qv.png
     
    Female, 31 March
    http://i58.tinypic.com/2lwxdes.png
     
     
    Female, 1st April
    http://i61.tinypic.com/2mo8cqh.png

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  3. #2
    Fabrizio
    Guest

    Default Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

     
    Hello, my new-bought Polypedates leucomystax have severe rostral abrasion, at least this seems to be the cause for subsequent infection they developed.
    I bought 3 back in November, the male had a small lesion on his lip and I trated with blue-methylene. then Baytril; he healed. The female (and another male) had ''smooth'', patch-like lesions that soon toke an ulcerated look, like flesh-eating disease. Despite several antibiotics (powder - Ampicilline, Bactrim, Gentamycin as cream, and Trimetoprim orally), she died after a month. I was suggested and gave a pain-killer too, Metacam, but I read here it could be lethal!
     
    -I bought these further 2 Polypedates 10 days ago, and almost nothing I could notice at beginning.
    Later, I noticed two very small points on male's head, that 2 days after evolved in the same smooth patches.
    I treated him in the last 3 days with silver sulphadiazine cream (he removed that with all 4 limbs), but he died today He looks very ''skinny'' (perhaps dehydrated?)
    -The female is still alive and not skinny, but her lesions are a bit different. More clear and deep rostral lesion, and a ''dark point'' (a previous lesion's result?) on her head.
    I'm worried this could become a flesh-eating disorder, too...
     
    -All I gave her since now, is Aloe gel on the rostral area ( to help healing,and it should have antibiotic effects in addition), and silver sulphadiazine on her head.
    -I could put liquid Baytril in her bathing basin ( a small lid), I know doses but how to be sure how much water = Baytril she will actually absorb?
    Better to drop a Baytril solution directly on the affected area?
    SHe is placed in a neat box, only dry absorbing paper on the bottom, a sterilized smooth wood and water lid, plus a gentle heat mat underside.
     
    Should I put silver sulphadiazine on the rostral area, too, instead of Aloe gel?
    I read here about Neosporin, yet I can't find it here in Italy: the nearest product is Streptosil, yet it lacks Polymyxin-B, I don't know how much that could reduce its effects.
     
    -Finally, how about Gentamicyn cream? It failed with the previus frog yet I had tried it at the very last...
     
    Here, some pictures along the days, for you to understand better :
     
    Male, 24 March
    http://i62.tinypic.com/2uoq2pd.png
     
    Male, 31 March
    http://i57.tinypic.com/2j4y2cg.png
     
    Female, 26 March
    http://i58.tinypic.com/b9hk6x.png
     
    Female, 28 March (begun Aloe);
    http://i61.tinypic.com/2mrw7ib.png
     
    Female, 29 March
    http://i59.tinypic.com/2iau0qv.png
     
    Female, 31 March
    http://i58.tinypic.com/2lwxdes.png
     
     
    Female, 1st April
    http://i61.tinypic.com/2mo8cqh.png

  4. #3
    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    If you are unable to get to a vet, I would go with the Baytril and SSD ( a tiny bit until the skin returns to normal)
    Good luck
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
    Dendrobates auratus "Pena Blanca"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
    Phyllobates bicolor "Uraba"

    Oophaga pumilio "Black Jeans"
    Oophaga pumilio "Isla Popa"
    Oophaga pumilio "Bastimentos"
    Oophaga pumilio “Mimbitimbi”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Colubre"
    Oophaga pumilio "Red Frog Beach”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Branco"
    Oophaga pumilio “Valle del Rey”
    Oophaga pumilio "BriBri"
    Oophaga pumilio "El Dorado"
    Oophaga pumilio "Cristobal"
    Oophaga pumilio "Rambala"

    Oophaga “Vicentei” (blue)

    Oophaga sylvatica "Paru"
    Oophaga sylvatica "Pata Blanca"
    Oophaga histrionica “Redhead”
    Oophaga histrionica "Blue"
    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
    Ranitomeya vanzolinii

    http://www.fernsfrogs.com
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  6. #4
    Fabrizio
    Guest

    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    Quote Originally Posted by flybyferns View Post
    If you are unable to get to a vet, I would go with the Baytril and SSD ( a tiny bit until the skin returns to normal)
    Good luck
    Thank you so much Lynn I've begun to treat with SSD, yet the problem is that she wipes away almost all of the cream with her hands I hope a tiny layer staying attached anyhow, could be effective as well, but at the same time I'm worried I put too much cream, in attempt to smear it throughly... If this cream is safe enough (even on mouth area) I'll give plenty of it, on lesions. As to Baytril, I diluted it in her water dish, but she jumps out as soon as I'm trying to put her into... She's very ''plumpy'' and perhaps, as she's kept in dry enclosure, as soon as she feel need for water, she will head to it. I know Baytril dosages for iniections, but for bathing, do you know how should I dose it? Thank you again

  7. #5
    Fabrizio
    Guest

    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    Hello again, she seems to worsen, and SSD seems to have actually ''expanded'' injuried areas on her head, after I stopped with Aloe gel; while her nose has become more red and ''bloody''...
    When I approach her to smear SSD or drop Baytril, she reacts violently, shrieks, jumps away.
    But I notice she opens/closes mouth, in such instances (I don't know if she does so otherwise).
    Any further treatment to try?
    Thank you All

  8. #6
    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    Sorry
    I don't know how baytril dosing is used for "bathing".
    I have used it only in drop form / for the systemic treatment of an infections ( prepared by wt for the frog)
    It important to use the SSD sparingly. A " a tiny bit" as mentioned.
    I really think you need to consult a vet.
    Last edited by flybyferns; April 5th, 2014 at 06:23 PM.
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
    Dendrobates auratus "Pena Blanca"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
    Phyllobates bicolor "Uraba"

    Oophaga pumilio "Black Jeans"
    Oophaga pumilio "Isla Popa"
    Oophaga pumilio "Bastimentos"
    Oophaga pumilio “Mimbitimbi”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Colubre"
    Oophaga pumilio "Red Frog Beach”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Branco"
    Oophaga pumilio “Valle del Rey”
    Oophaga pumilio "BriBri"
    Oophaga pumilio "El Dorado"
    Oophaga pumilio "Cristobal"
    Oophaga pumilio "Rambala"

    Oophaga “Vicentei” (blue)

    Oophaga sylvatica "Paru"
    Oophaga sylvatica "Pata Blanca"
    Oophaga histrionica “Redhead”
    Oophaga histrionica "Blue"
    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
    Ranitomeya vanzolinii

    http://www.fernsfrogs.com
    https://www.facebook.com/ferns.frogs

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  10. #7
    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    Hi, i wish you guys get me out of my hiding sooner

    anyhow this looks very much not good and very painfully familiar.....

    You need to stop self treating and run to the vet who knows frogs asap! I mean it, run! Call the vet and tell him it is an emergency! Every medication has to be used in certain way and the worst you can do is to jump from meds to meds, especially it is the case of antibiotics. Correct dosage is very important too. If you dont have access to frog vet, but have access to antibiotics, pm me.
    Meanwhile....
    How are you keeping them? Before and now? Please answer to "trouble in the enclosure question" here.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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  12. #8
    Fabrizio
    Guest

    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    Thank you Lija and Lynn,
    I got her and the already deceased male at a expo 15 days ago, and only slight lesions were barely visible at the beginning. The trader told me about how frequent is this lesion in this species, as they jump forcefully and after shipment (form USA) are often that situation.
    I found a Polypedates leucomystax, the same species, looking very similar to mine here (fig. 4 in the PDF) -and the said reasons were the same.
    http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&...64125504,d.bGQ
    I bought first Polyp. 2 years ago, same seller, they were fine - I lost female last September, a few days of absence and too dry killed her
    Male is still healthy.
    SO I searched for other female, in November I got one and 3 males, she was injuried the same way, so 2 males.
    After some days of Bleu-methylene and Baytril, the less injuried male recovered, and he's fine; the other died, and a third one never was injuried.
    So died that female, after 1 month of antibiotics.
    So I got this further pair 15 days ago... only to see again the same problem
    -Vet are quite afar, long train-bus travels surely stressful; and here in Italy amphibians are not well known, barely you can find vets expert enough in Reptiles.
    If something more I can do for help her, I would try my best.
    I have Baytril (25 mg),
    Vibravet (paste),
    Sofargen (SSD cream),
    Gentalyn cream (= gentamycin + beta-metasone, antyinflammatory cortisonic)
    Cicatrene ( powder = Neomycin + Bacitracin)
    Ampicilline, powder;
    Bactrim = trisoprim (powder and syrup);
    If more antibiotics are needed, I'll try my best to find them, other are surely available in the nearby pharmacy.
    I look forward for any suggestions, hope I could put it in some results...

  13. #9
    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    No, i meant how are you keeping them

    please answer these questions

    1-size of enclosure
    2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?)
    3-humidity
    4-temp
    5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
    6-materials used for substrate
    7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv
    8-main food source
    9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often )
    10-lighting
    11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
    12-when is the last time he ate
    13-have you found poop lately
    14-a pic would be great ( including the frog ) any little cell phone pic is fine
    15- how old is the frog
    16-how long have you owned him
    17- is the frog wild caught or captive bred

    meanwhile, make sure you keep your sick frog separately from the healthy one on wet papertowels in a enclosure with all 4 sides covered, provide enough hides, plants, etc, use ssd that you have 2x day on wounds and use Enrofloxacin ( baytril) 10mg/kg once a day for 2 weeks. It should be water based suspension, count correct dosage based on your concentration.use insulin syringe to administer dose, you needs to drop correct dose on frogs back. Do not handle and do not touch a frog unless absolutely have to. If it is getting better you still need to use it for 2 weeks.

    the main trick here is to provide as stress free environment as possible +meds. Im sure a frog is wc, so you have a long way to go even if/when she is healed.
    Of course long drive is not the best option, but Italy is well knows for reptile vets, in fact the last symposium i believe was hosted there i will try to help you, good you can get meds, here in north america everything is only by prescription

    i gotta go now, but there are a few things you will need to do for your healthy male too, not urgent though.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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  15. #10
    Fabrizio
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    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    Thank you Lija and Lynn,
    excuse me for delay in answering....
    About your questions, I have to answer that they were kept in a void box, with dry paper towel and a 1 inch deep lid of water, and only a smooth wood I removed later.
    Her enclosure is in smooth plastic, about 30 X 40 x 40 cm - she doesn't engage in jumping, except when bothered by treatments (I try to be not stressful)
    -No food taken, as long as I know, since I bought her on 23 March; but some days later I found a poop.
    I'm avoiding to put insects inside as I'm afraid they could stress and even bring more bacteria inside... Today I put some 3 mealworms, but not interest, at least at beginning.
    -She is kept at room temperature, about 22-23 °C ; I'm afraid heating mat had a role in killing the male, as he was resting at the bottom and towel paper was dry.
    -IS there any risks, if she ingest some food while her mouthparts are still smeared with SSD?
    I had read your precious suggestions however, and already practicing them.
    Are you sure SSD twice a day is good? I notice, quite often she wipes away it as soon, and as I try to compensate for that, I'm worrying perhaps too much active principle is delivered to her organism (her limbs stay more or less smeared with the cream)
    As to Baytril, dropping some of the due amount of drops directly on lesions, is advisable?
    -I would like to understand that, even because I'm afraid that one of the medications could remove / not allow to get in contact with the skin the other, if put in the same place and about at the same time.
    Here more recent three pictures of her, 4-9-11-12 April ; I see, injuried area is quite 'stable', at least (in my dead frog in Dicember, under several antibiotics, the injuried area kept extending all the time, a bit at a time).
    -A worrying issue, a small area on mouth side that seems ''reddened'', in today's picture.
    4 April
    http://i61.tinypic.com/9rlge1.png
    9 April
    http://i57.tinypic.com/vsm4br.png
    11 April
    http://i58.tinypic.com/25fuh34.png
    12 April
    http://i59.tinypic.com/15q4uiu.png

  16. #11
    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    Yes heats mats on a bottom of a tank for frogs are not a good idea.

    Baytril has to be dropped on a back, not on a wounds, it works systemically from within frogs body.
    Are you keeping frog separately in a plastic box with all 4 sides covered and not see through?

    Danger of a frog not eating us that its body defences will go down, you need to try to feed it, drop crickets in, it is ok, just make sure they are well fed and not left for longer time uneaten. At this point i would do a bath with hydrolytes, something similar to pedyalyte, you should have substitutes, as long as it unflavoured you can use it. Use 9 parts of water, 1 part of electrolyte solution.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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  18. #12
    Fabrizio
    Guest

    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    Thank you Lija, I hope some drops I let on her wounded areas didn't add further harm; I'll stick to drop on her back and no elsewhere, onwards since now. Her tank is surrounded by black plastic, and I keep her in a dark (most of the time) room, in order to make her to rest and avoid stress, as well as consumption.
    I'll try the electrolyte bath as soon as possible -I hope she will stay within, for all of the needed time...
    -As to food, I can try again... I managed to force-feed the previous frog, she ingested some mealworms chrysalids (but regurgitated them when near to death, last time I fed her); however it's a very stressful and painful practice, and a sore mouth would still worsen the whole.
    But if necessary I would try that, too.
    I hope there are suggesions, for possible ''forced'', yet not stressful way to deliver nourishment...
    -I'll keep you updated, I'll try to take a picture every some 2 days.

  19. #13
    Fabrizio
    Guest

    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    P S Excuse me for OT, Lija could you please help me here, too? http://www.frogforum.net/aquatic-cla...pipa-pipa.html

  20. #14
    Ratz
    Guest

    Default Re: Help, infected rostral abrasion on White Tree Frogs!

    Hello,

    I hope the treatment helps! Try to offer some crickets in a small bowl. Worm - like feeders seem to be not really attractive for tree frogs.



    good luck!

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