Mystery diagnosis?

[LiarDelilah]

I'm a relatively new frog owner (I had many in the past as a kid, but hardly as seriously.) I bought two White's Tree Frogs, but one in particular has developed this discolored spot. I've done a bit of research, but I can't figure out for myself if its a bacterial thing, or how to go about it. I tried using the water/honey dousing, as well as the water/methaline blue thing, but I didn't want to continue with it until I knew what was up. Tonight is the darkest the frog's gotten, though that brown shading does get a bit lighter, but what concerns me is that prominent spot. Anyone know what the deal is with this?

[Mentat]

Hello and welcome to FF! Looks like your frog is suffering from a skin irritation. Please answer the below questions and we will try to help. Also, read this care guide to ensure all it's needs are met: Frog Forum - White's Tree Frog Care - Litoria caerulea .

Frogs skin is very absorbing so need to think of its water (should be dechlorinated tap), washing your hands well and rinsing with dechlorinated tap before handling, avoid placing frog in any surfaces that have been exposed to chemical cleaners, or using any aerosols near them. Thank you !

“Trouble in the Frog Enclosure”

The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.

1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.
16. How old is the frog
17. How long have you owned him/her
18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
20. How often the frog is handled
21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.

[LiarDelilah]

Hello and welcome to FF! Looks like your frog is suffering from a skin irritation. Please answer the below questions and we will try to help. Also, read this care guide to ensure all it's needs are met: Frog Forum - White's Tree Frog Care - Litoria caerulea .

Frogs skin is very absorbing so need to think of its water (should be dechlorinated tap), washing your hands well and rinsing with dechlorinated tap before handling, avoid placing frog in any surfaces that have been exposed to chemical cleaners, or using any aerosols near them. Thank you !

“Trouble in the Frog Enclosure”

The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.


by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.

Hi! Thanks for the reply! Aww, man. I was hoping not. Weed the information.- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
1. Size of enclosure: 12 x 18 x 12, this is the current size of the isolation terrarium. Ordinarily the cage is a bit bigger.
2. # of inhabitants: there is one their frog, though not at the present, as the frog I'm concerned about is in isolation. There is a bit of a size difference, but not much.
3. Humidity- 80
4. Temperature- 70-75 at the lowest (night), 80s during the day.
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish- Was using regular water, now I've been using water that's been sitting out for at least 24 hours.
6. Materials used for substrate: coconut fiber/moss
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.: in the current tank, there is a fake vine, and a fake plant or two as well. In the main tank there are a few live plants.
8. Main food source: crickets
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often): Vitamin C dusting daily, with d3 once a week or two, multivitamins about the same.
10. Lighting: Exo Terra Repti-Glo 2.0 Compact Fluorescent Full Spectrum Terrarium Lamp, 26-Watt
Exo Terra (38)
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure: not needed, room is warm enough.
12. When is the last time he/she ate: tonight
13. Have you found poop lately: haven't searched, but will keep an eye out for it.
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.- skin darkening to a dark brown (beside one patch)
16. How old is the frog- Still juvenile. Not sure how old.
17. How long have you owned him/her- about a month
18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred- captive
19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats- N/A, only crickets
20. How often the frog is handled- when necessary, once a week a best.
21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area- low traffic
22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)- hasn't been maintained yet, still relatively new. Mostly, I change the water.

[flybyferns]

Hi,
Sorry your frog has what is likely an infection? Poor baby
In the 1st photo posted .....the area under the light green coloration looks swollen; but not in photo 2 and 3.
Were these photos taken taken on different days?
Could this be the result of a puncture?
Do you see anything on the light green spot that looks like a puncture that closed up? It would be very dark and small.

He needs a herp vet.
If you don't have a herp vet near you ( that will treat frogs and is experienced with frogs) you can contact Dr Frye:
This can be done via email. Attach these three photos ( especially the 1st photo).

Payment for medications is made via tele with a credit card or paypal and then mailed.meantime

It all goes very smoothly...he is great.
He might be off on Wednesday....but I do recall him responding to me in the past on a day off....even on a Sunday.

"You can pay by PayPal at dr.frye.vetatmilan@gmail.com , or by calling my office at 734-439-2273 and paying via credit card over the phone "

http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-supplies.html

You will want to move along as there will be the wait because of shipping. He may be able to tell you what to do in the
meantime.

When emailing him give him a little background about the frog and, if possible, a weight ( use a food scale/metric)
If a weight is not possible, measure him ....snout to vent.

Additional information should include :
is the area under the light green soft or firm
how long has he been like this
the frog's approx age
wild or captive bred --- if known
when and where ( from whom) did you purchase the frog
is he eating
have you found poop
does he have diarrhea
is he lethargic
is he spending time in the water dish

Knowing if the frog is wild caught or captive bred is important...If you could determine this it would be helpful for Dr Frye to this information.

Best of luck- keep us posted
Lynn

[Mentat]

Lynn suggested take frog to veterinary if possible; so maybe these links will help find one local or contact Dr. Frye: Arav or Herp Vet Connection. If you have two frogs together when problem started and there is a pathogen involved will probably need to treat both frogs and sterilize all enclosures involved.

Sterilization will include getting rid of all live plants and substrate, boiling for 10 minutes all plastic and silk plants/decor, baking all wood and any drainage rocks at 250F for one hour, and wiping enclosure out with 15% plain chlorox solution. Let air dry and then wipe with paper towel soaked in 4X strength dechlorinator solution. If available wipe with Zoo Med Wipe Out and let air dry before reusing.

I've made some comments based on your responses. Good luck !

Hi! Thanks for the reply! Aww, man. I was hoping not. Weed the information.- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
1. Size of enclosure: 12 x 18 x 12, this is the current size of the isolation terrarium. Ordinarily the cage is a bit bigger.
Two adult White's will need at least an 18x18x24 and that is bare minimum.

3. Humidity- 80
Lower to 50-65% by increasing ventilation or decreasing misting.

4. Temperature- 70-75 at the lowest (night), 80s during the day.
White's need a day basking spot of 85F.

5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish- Was using regular water, now I've been using water that's been sitting out for at least 24 hours.
Get Seachem Prime or similar product and dechlorinate the water. Chloramines do not leave the water by venting and your frog is getting toxins in them.

6. Materials used for substrate: coconut fiber/moss
Moss is an impaction hazard if it ever gets ingested with a cricket. The coco fiber should be mixed with dechlorinated tap or it will hurt your frog. Mix it so it is slightly damp and clumps in fist without dripping water out. You mentioned live plants and unless epiphytes; will need ABG soil because there is no plant nutrition in coco.

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.: in the current tank, there is a fake vine, and a fake plant or two as well. In the main tank there are a few live plants.
How were those live plants prepared? Did you rinse them off all soil from original pots?

8. Main food source: crickets
Should be sized same as distance between frog's eyes and gut loaded with carrots, lettuce, crushed oats/cherios.

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often): Vitamin C dusting daily, with d3 once a week or two, multivitamins about the same.
Stop giving daily vitamin C to frog now (or did you meant Calcium). Use following schedules according to frog size for dusting: http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html .

13. Have you found poop lately: haven't searched, but will keep an eye out for it.
Recommend conduct fecal analysis for both frogs.

19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats- N/A, only crickets
See no. 8.

20. How often the frog is handled- when necessary, once a week a best.
Wash hands well and rinse with dechlorinated tap before handling frog; then wash again after handling.

22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)- hasn't been maintained yet, still relatively new. Mostly, I change the water.
Water should be changed daily with dechlorinated tap and enclosure spot cleaned as required.

[LiarDelilah]

Thank you for the replies!

Lynn, what is the average cost to contact the vet online? Also, if it is an infection, how treatable is something like this? I'm so bummed, I feel like I already failed at my first frog.

[LiarDelilah]

Lynn suggested take frog to veterinary if possible; so maybe these links will help find one local or contact Dr. Frye: Arav or Herp Vet Connection. If you have two frogs together when problem started and there is a pathogen involved will probably need to treat both frogs and sterilize all enclosures involved.

Sterilization will include getting rid of all live plants and substrate, boiling for 10 minutes all plastic and silk plants/decor, baking all wood and any drainage rocks at 250F for one hour, and wiping enclosure out with 15% plain chlorox solution. Let air dry and then wipe with paper towel soaked in 4X strength dechlorinator solution. If available wipe with Zoo Med Wipe Out and let air dry before reusing.

I've made some comments based on your responses. Good luck !

Thank you! Yes, their MAIN cage is a 18x18x24, the dimensions I gave were for the isolation tank that the frog is currently in. I will be dumping out and baking the things inside asap. Also, the plants were kept in a glass jar terrariums long before I had the frogs, they have not been cleansed, as I wouldnt know how to go about doing that, but I did get rid of all prior dirt that had come along with them, and I did my research to make sure that the plants were frog-safe. When I typed my response, I was half asleep, I completely did mean CALCIUM and not vitamin C, sorry! The food is crickets, they are considered "medium" crickets. I already know about the space between the eye thing, and they fit said rule. Water will definitely be dechlorinated now, and I will be stopping misting (so frequently, at least)

[LiarDelilah]

Hi,

In the 1st photo posted .....the area under the light green coloration looks swollen; but not in photo 2 and 3.
Were these photos taken taken on different days?
Could this be the result of a puncture?
Do you see anything on the light green spot that looks like a puncture that closed up? It would be very dark and small.

Missed this part. havent taken the frog out since, but looking through the glass, I see no puncture or abrasion. However, there IS one of my frogs, (not sure which one, didnt take note of it until it came to mind just now), that when it catches its food is all OVER the place. The one catches them gracefully, always on point, then there's one that flies after the food and often tumbles, which I wouldn't doubt for a minute may very well have been this one, and may have scratched himself? I will be observing a lot closer for sure. I cant do any major baking or cleansing of the MAIN cage (I have a final essay to write -today) but will today for sure at least in the hospital tank the concerned frog is in, be removing the coconut substrate and be replacing with paper towel and sanitize the water dish. Should I leave the fake plants to make it feel less stressed/more comfortable?

When I have time tomorrow I will definitely be overhauling the pairs main home tank and doing a hardcore cleanse on it, and its decor.

[flybyferns]

Thank you for the replies!

Lynn, what is the average cost to contact the vet online? Also, if it is an infection, how treatable is something like this? I'm so bummed, I feel like I already failed at my first frog.

There is no "contact" charge. You just pay for the medication.
He will not charge you to email him....he will get back to you ...really quickly
Lynn

[LiarDelilah]

Great! Thank you so much! I'll contact him straight away!

[flybyferns]

Missed this part. havent taken the frog out since, but looking through the glass, I see no puncture or abrasion. However, there IS one of my frogs, (not sure which one, didnt take note of it until it came to mind just now), that when it catches its food is all OVER the place. The one catches them gracefully, always on point, then there's one that flies after the food and often tumbles, which I wouldn't doubt for a minute may very well have been this one, and may have scratched himself? I will be observing a lot closer for sure. I cant do any major baking or cleansing of the MAIN cage (I have a final essay to write -today) but will today for sure at least in the hospital tank the concerned frog is in, be removing the coconut substrate and be replacing with paper towel and sanitize the water dish. Should I leave the fake plants to make it feel less stressed/more comfortable?

When I have time tomorrow I will definitely be overhauling the pairs main home tank and doing a hardcore cleanse on it, and its decor.

Dampened paper towel in a hospital enclosure is perfect.
All water should be de-chlorinated. (P towel and water dish)
A sprig of plant real or fake will help him.
You could also cover three sides of the tank to make him feel more secure in his hospital tank as there is added stress when they are moved.

Tell Dr Frye about the tumbling...this could be a Calcium deficiency.
Dust their crickets ( calcium supplement) more frequently.

You have not failed.
They may have come to you this way?
All of this is fixable

The frog with the green spot needs antibiotics.

If they were living together....leave the frog that is tumbling, when eating, in the main tank.
Feed him bowl method AND what he is used to. Bowl method: put his crickets in a wide /clear/ 3" high bowl.

Lynn

[Mentat]

Did you get both frogs at the same time? The tumbling and whole frog issues might be caused by exposure to chloramines in tap water. An infection could be a secondary development, due to toxins in body and a weakened immune system .

[LiarDelilah]

Yes, I got them both about a day apart. I got them both from my work (Petco), so they have lived together for some time. Really? You think low calcium? I've been fusing with calcium since I've got them, given that they're babies/juvenile and still growing.

Are you saying they SHOULD be together for feeding or remain separated as they are at the present?

[LiarDelilah]

Where do I contact Dr. Frye? The same paypal email that was recommended, or does he have another known preferred method?

[Mentat]

Where do I contact Dr. Frye? The same paypal email that was recommended, or does he have another known preferred method?

Here is his contact information: Milan Area Animal Hospital, David M. Frye, DVM, Veterinary services in Milan, MI, Home page.

[flybyferns]

Where do I contact Dr. Frye? The same paypal email that was recommended, or does he have another known preferred method?

http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

email 1st -- see post #4 in this thread

[flybyferns]

Where do I contact Dr. Frye? The same paypal email that was recommended, or does he have another known preferred method?

Email 1st-----see post #4 in this thread.


http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

[LiarDelilah]

Update: contacted Dr. Frye. He thinks it's a possibility that it is a bacterial, or fungal infection, or a mix of the two. He will be sending baytril and silversufa. I really hope this works. I asked if the frogs should be separated, as e one is in isolation, he suggested that since they've lived together and raised together, it would be more stressful to keep them apart, and to treat the frog that is not showing signs with baytril unless any actual symptoms arise.

Now, I'm just left wondering if I can still use coconut fiber as a bedding for the pair of them and leave it planted or not, otherwise I have some deep cleaning to do while the other is in the hospital tank.

Thoughts? I'm a little paranoid about the naturalistic woods I have in there. Definitely have been decreasing their humidity, though.

[Mentat]

Myself would move both frogs together into hospital enclosure during treatment duration and sterilize the main one as per post no. 5. Sorry I'm telling you to tear whole vivarium up and get rid of everything that can't be sterilized; but there are no other options . That is the reason a proper quarantine is important, specially when moving frogs into an expensively decorated live vivarium.

[LiarDelilah]

Myself would move both frogs together into hospital enclosure during treatment duration and sterilize the main one as per post no. 5. Sorry I'm telling you to tear whole vivarium up and get rid of everything that can't be sterilized; but there are no other options . That is the reason a proper quarantine is important, specially when moving frogs into an expensively decorated live vivarium.

Hardly your fault! I work at petco, so I can always get more. I guess what I'm not sure of, is after they, primarily the one, are treated, is a planted tank okay for them? How do I prevent said infection from coming back or am I doomed to a paper towel/unplanted terrarium as long as I have them? Haha