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Thread: Humidity vs. Temp : Plants vs. Frogs

  1. #1
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    Default Humidity vs. Temp : Plants vs. Frogs

    Hey, all. My daughter and I recently put together a Zoo Med Naturalistic 18x18x24 viv. It houses three American Green Tree Frogs (AGTF) and live plants. It has a 2-3" gravel/Hygroball base covered with fiberglass screening and then 2-4" of mixed substrate (orchid bark, sphagnum peat moss, long-fiber sphagnum moss, coconut fiber, and charcoal) finally topped of with about 1" of damp long-fiber sphagnum moss (sloping down from back to front). It has a small water fountain feature in the back right corner that runs over a short river rock stream and empties into a small pond. It has one large, artificial, decorative stump/branch that reaches from the back to the front and is planted with many live plants.

    The top of the viv has the screen that came with it, but I also cut a square piece of plexiglass to cover the top to hold in humidity. The viv has an 18" dual-bulb canopy with two 26W Exo Terra Full Spectrum Reptiglo 2.0 UVB CF bulbs. I have a Reptifogger and an All Things Living digital thermometer/hygrometer. The lights are on a timer with a 10-hour photoperiod from 10am-8pm. The Reptifogger is also on a timer that goes on seven times throughout the day for a 5-minute period.

    Many (most) of the live plants in my viv are semi-aquatic, and a couple are even fully aquatic. With the high humidity of the viv and the waterfall/pond, I figured I could make these plants work.

    Here are my problems. The plants require high humidity and/or lots of water and a warm clime. Also, they require lots of light. From what I can find online about AGTFs, these frogs only need between 60%-70% humidity, are nocturnal and don't need a lot of light. Which/whose conditions should I pay more attention to? The plants or the frogs? A lifetime ago when I used to keep Amano-style planted freshwater aquariums, the saying was always, "Happy plants mean happy fish." Does the same hold true for amphibians in a viv?

    According to the digital hygrometer, the viv pretty much stays at 99% ALL the time. The temp ranges from about 78°F during the day with the lights on down to around 68°F at night with the lights off. I could lower the humidity level in the tank by propping open a 3" hinged section of the plexiglass top that I made. However, opening this up and letting the humidity out also lowers the temperature in the tank, quickly. While I want the tank climate to be comfortable for the frogs, I also want it to be conducive to good plant growth. The more the plants grow, the more hiding and resting places for the frogs, right?! But if I lower the heat and humidity, the plants will suffer.

    So, which avenue should I pursue? Make the frogs or the plants happy? Given this is "Frog Forum", I'm sure I can guess the answer from most of you. But I don't know how analogous vivariums are to planted aquariums. Do happy plants also make happy frogs, and I should cater more to the plants needs?

    I would appreciate any thoughts, opinions, or advice on maintaining our viv. I have picked up a Zoo Med HygroTherm to automatically control my humidity and temp levels. I also got a Zoo Med Repti-Therm 30-40 gallon under-tank heater that I will attach to the side of the tank (can't put it on the bottom because of water in the tank). With the HygroTherm, Repti-Fogger, and Heater, I hope to keep everything pretty well under control. Now I just need to know what all those control settings should be!

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  3. #2
    Tongue Flicker
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    Default Re: Humidity vs. Temp : Plants vs. Frogs

    It is very important to research what the native plants are in the AGTF environment so it is easier to replicate. First off, you should avoid housing anything (and i mean, everything) together that does not have the same care requirements. Like you've noticed, you are already compromising on what to care for more.

    Try lowering the humidity by increasing some vent holes. Plants by themselves release moisture thru transpiration and thus increases your humidity levels more. Your substrate is nice as they drain easily and hold moisture easily but you have charcoal in it, a moisture absorber.

    Air temps are significantly lower below and around the plants and warmer away and at the top of the plants (because of transpiration). What specific kind of plants do you have anyways?

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Humidity vs. Temp : Plants vs. Frogs

    Thank you for the input, Neil. Yes, this was not the best way to go about putting a vivarium together. Having previously been a veteran of saltwater tanks and heavily-planted freshwater tanks, I am accustomed to advising newbies to do as much research as possible beforehand and always try to buy good equipment right from the start. Unfortunately, this was a case of desperately trying to console a cute little girl (who has her daddy wrapped around her finger) as quickly as possible. With the hectic, holiday season here, if I hadn't put something together right away, it likely would have been several weeks before we'd have time to get around to it. With all the research and proper planning I have done with past hobbies, I'm hoping I could get a pass this one time as long as I haven't done anything to completely mess it all up or harm the frogs.

    Below is a list of the live plants I have added to the viv, as best as I can recall. A couple of them I bought in haste and had to identify after the fact by looking at photos of the plants offered by the LPS. However, I know what most of them are, and as far as I can find, none of them appear to be on a "Not Recommended" list for frog habitats.

    Peacock Fern (Selaginella uncinata)
    Cryptocoryne wendtii
    White Ribbon Plant (Dracaena sanderiana)
    What I believe to be Amazon Sword (Echinodorus amazonicus)
    Java Fern (Microsorum pteropus)
    Riccia fluitans


    After doing some more research on the AGTF, I think they should be able to do fine at the top end of the recommended ranges for temp and humidity. Those levels should just meet the bottom end of the recommended ranges for most, if not all, of my live plants. I have installed the HygroTherm and hooked up my ReptiFogger and heating mat for automated control. I'm hoping I should be able to get away with programming the settings to 80°F and 80%RH, with a nighttime drop in temp down to around 75-76°F. Would this be acceptable?

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Humidity vs. Temp : Plants vs. Frogs

    Okay, I think I may be wrong about the Amazon Sword. When I bought it (at Petco), it was planted rubber-banded to another plant (which I cannot ID) in the aquarium, not in a pot or anything with identifying markers. I vaguely remember the aquatics person saying something about Peace Lily and how it really isn't an aquatic plant. So, she couldn't figure out what it was doing in the aquarium. We continued looking at other plants and at the last minute grabbed the alleged Peace Lily plant. After getting home and looking at pics to try and identify it, it looked similar to some Amazon Swords, but in general its leaves were too rounded and stalks too thick. Now that I'm remembering this Peace Lily comment, I think that may be what it is.

    There seems to be some confusion about the safety of Peace Lily in a frog habitat, but what I've read so far says that as long as the frogs don't eat it they should be fine. Is this correct?

  6. #5
    Tongue Flicker
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    Default Re: Humidity vs. Temp : Plants vs. Frogs

    Oh the peace lilies are spathiphyllums. If you plant these in the whole tank it's okay to drop the humidity and lighting specs a little as they can tolerate shade well provided that you plant their roots in water. Don't submerge the leaves, just plant the base of the stem just above the roots in surface water level. Dracaenas will need brighter light and higher humidity or their leaf tips will turn brown.

  7. #6

    Default Humidity vs. Temp : Plants vs. Frogs

    Your plant selection is fine. The dracaena you have though, is commonly called lucky bamboo. It may it may not adapt to the high humidity of a tank. I grow most of what you listed in one of my tanks at mid 70's humidity. Despite the claims that growing plants emersed requires high humidity, my crypts (most of them rare) flourish under low humidity conditions. The sword (if that is what it is) "can" be grown emersed, with a lot of patience and care, but really prefer an aquatic environment.
    1.0.0 Oophaga Pumilio 'Black Jeans'
    0.0.10 Phyllobates Vittatus
    0.0.3 Phyllobates Terribilis 'Mint'
    0.0.3 Dendrobates Tinctorius 'Patricia'
    0.0.5 Dendrobates Leucomelas
    0.0.2 Dendrobates Tinctorius 'Powder Blue'
    0.0.2 Ranitomeya Variabilis 'southern'
    0.0.3 Epipedobates Anthonyi 'zarayunga'
    1.2.0 Phyllobates bicolor
    0.0.3 Dendrobates tinctorius 'azureus'
    0.0.1 Avicularia Avicularia
    0.0.1 Gramastola porteri
    0.2.0 Canines
    1.0.0 Tabby/Maine Coon Mix
    2.1.0 Genetics Experiments
    0.1.0 Bed Bully

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