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Thread: Impaction

  1. #1
    100+ Post Member elliotulysses's Avatar
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    Question Impaction

    Soon I am thinking of changing from my bare-bottom tank to a soil beneath sand in order to grow some plants.

    I hand feed my frogs, to keep a good check on their health as well as not wasting any food.

    However, is there any risk of impaction with my frogs? I know small gravel is a no-go, but if they accidentally eat sand would it be easy for them to pass it through?
    The sand I intend to use is some washed "play sand" from home depot.

    Also, if I do not raise any plants, would a bare bottom (save for large river stones) be better? I have noticed they produce a lot of waste and it is extremely easy to clean now. I just worry the sand may add a complication.
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    100+ Post Member mpmistr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    You will need to completely break down the tank to do soil -- it can be VERY messy.. why not just go sand and root tabs? I grow water sprite, vals, crypts, ect with sand and root tabs. My tank is an overgrown jungle. If you do a dirted tank you'll need a really good 2" sand cap because the frogs will kick up the sand regularly. If you get dirt into your water column it becomes really messy really fast.

    I really think since you're new to keeping clawed frogs you'd be better off with just a 2-3" layer of sand and root tabs. What are you growing that requires dirt?

    I was in the same boat you were two years ago. I had river rock and I wanted sand and plants. What I did was I put the frogs in a temporary location, a 5 gallon bucket works. I rinsed the sand out very good, removed the water from the tank (mostly), removed the river rock and added the sand. You can actually keep some of the river rock in there, the sand will cover it up anyways.

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  5. #3
    100+ Post Member elliotulysses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    Quote Originally Posted by mpmistr View Post
    You will need to completely break down the tank to do soil -- it can be VERY messy.. why not just go sand and root tabs? I grow water sprite, vals, crypts, ect with sand and root tabs. My tank is an overgrown jungle. If you do a dirted tank you'll need a really good 2" sand cap because the frogs will kick up the sand regularly. If you get dirt into your water column it becomes really messy really fast.

    I really think since you're new to keeping clawed frogs you'd be better off with just a 2-3" layer of sand and root tabs. What are you growing that requires dirt?

    I was in the same boat you were two years ago. I had river rock and I wanted sand and plants. What I did was I put the frogs in a temporary location, a 5 gallon bucket works. I rinsed the sand out very good, removed the water from the tank (mostly), removed the river rock and added the sand. You can actually keep some of the river rock in there, the sand will cover it up anyways.
    Huh. I had it suggested to do that method by someone on here, but I can already see my "darlings" digging through to the soil, but I will keep root tabs in mind.

    I had a thread on the plants forum, asking to suggest good "starter" plants that would be great for ACFs. So far, I have found java ferns, java moss, and amazon swords to be a hardier plant.

    Right now I have a fake overgrown jungle, but it looks fairly natural and my frogs just can't help themselves to go and hide in the plants. I personally think they like them more than the "caves" (hollowed out buddah head and terra cotta vase with tons of holes to come in and out).

    So ultimately:

    Would you suggest sand? And just to double check; the play sand at a lowes or home depot will be fine?
    Because I looked at the bags of aquarium sand and the prices seemed outrageous for the amount they were giving :|
    Мy darlings :
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    1.1.0 Xenopus leavis Carlos and Cecil
    2?.0.2 Bombina orientalis Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Lenin and Putin
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    100+ Post Member mpmistr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    I like caribsea moonlight sand because it's a very fine smooth grain sand but it's not 'good' for holding down plants and it is fairly expensive. I think playsand would work perfectly fine so long as you rinse it out before adding it.

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    100+ Post Member elliotulysses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    Quote Originally Posted by mpmistr View Post
    I like caribsea moonlight sand because it's a very fine smooth grain sand but it's not 'good' for holding down plants and it is fairly expensive. I think playsand would work perfectly fine so long as you rinse it out before adding it.
    Cool! I'll look into the carbisea moonlight sand.
    Maybe I can do a bottom thicker layer of the play sand and do the carbisea over it. Mainly because I really like the look of it! Then I will have the heavier sand to plant my plants?
    Мy darlings :
    0.2.0 Calico and Tuxedo cats Ksyenja and Koshek
    1.1.0 Xenopus leavis Carlos and Cecil
    2?.0.2 Bombina orientalis Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Lenin and Putin
    0.1.0 Grammostola rose Megan Wallaby
    1.1.0 Heterometrus laoticus Ian and Isaac


  8. #6
    100+ Post Member mpmistr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    Quote Originally Posted by elliotulysses View Post
    Cool! I'll look into the carbisea moonlight sand.
    Maybe I can do a bottom thicker layer of the play sand and do the carbisea over it. Mainly because I really like the look of it! Then I will have the heavier sand to plant my plants?
    If you layer sand it will eventually completely mix in with the other. That being said, it still would help keep plants down. I am able to keep water sprite and vals rooted in it, the frogs do not kick it up that often and once the root structure gets a firm hold, the frogs cannot kick it up.

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  10. #7
    100+ Post Member elliotulysses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    Quote Originally Posted by mpmistr View Post
    If you layer sand it will eventually completely mix in with the other. That being said, it still would help keep plants down. I am able to keep water sprite and vals rooted in it, the frogs do not kick it up that often and once the root structure gets a firm hold, the frogs cannot kick it up.
    Ah, so it wouldn't truly matter if I mixed the sands or not. Maybe I should save myself some cash and just get the play sand, eh?
    Мy darlings :
    0.2.0 Calico and Tuxedo cats Ksyenja and Koshek
    1.1.0 Xenopus leavis Carlos and Cecil
    2?.0.2 Bombina orientalis Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Lenin and Putin
    0.1.0 Grammostola rose Megan Wallaby
    1.1.0 Heterometrus laoticus Ian and Isaac


  11. #8
    carsona246
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    Default Re: Impaction

    I use playsand, and without root tabs do not have difficulties growing low light plants. If I were you, I'd go the super cheap route. I've heard mixing sand is usually not a good idea, becuase the sand will eventually mix together, and instead of having 2 distinct layers, you'll just have a mix of sand grains.

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  13. #9
    100+ Post Member elliotulysses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    Quote Originally Posted by carsona246 View Post
    I use playsand, and without root tabs do not have difficulties growing low light plants. If I were you, I'd go the super cheap route. I've heard mixing sand is usually not a good idea, becuase the sand will eventually mix together, and instead of having 2 distinct layers, you'll just have a mix of sand grains.
    Which low light plants do you use? I figured a java fern would probably be good, as most ferns are plant that likes shade. Well, at least in outdoor gardening!
    Мy darlings :
    0.2.0 Calico and Tuxedo cats Ksyenja and Koshek
    1.1.0 Xenopus leavis Carlos and Cecil
    2?.0.2 Bombina orientalis Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Lenin and Putin
    0.1.0 Grammostola rose Megan Wallaby
    1.1.0 Heterometrus laoticus Ian and Isaac


  14. #10

    Default Impaction

    Quote Originally Posted by elliotulysses View Post
    Huh. I had it suggested to do that method by someone on here, but I can already see my "darlings" digging through to the soil, but I will keep root tabs in mind.

    I had a thread on the plants forum, asking to suggest good "starter" plants that would be great for ACFs. So far, I have found java ferns, java moss, and amazon swords to be a hardier plant.

    Right now I have a fake overgrown jungle, but it looks fairly natural and my frogs just can't help themselves to go and hide in the plants. I personally think they like them more than the "caves" (hollowed out buddah head and terra cotta vase with tons of holes to come in and out).

    So ultimately:

    Would you suggest sand? And just to double check; the play sand at a lowes or home depot will be fine?
    Because I looked at the bags of aquarium sand and the prices seemed outrageous for the amount they were giving :|
    I suggested it, as an option. Not the only way to do it. I also offered info on other fertilizers.
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  16. #11
    100+ Post Member elliotulysses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    Quote Originally Posted by deranged chipmunk View Post
    I suggested it, as an option. Not the only way to do it. I also offered info on other fertilizers.
    Indeed. There are a lot of options, much more than I even knew! But as a beginner I think I'll do the sand and use low light plants. One day, when I acquire more tank-wisdom, I definitely want to try the soil layered and get some plants that aren't strictly low-light. Even though the anubias seem to be relatively native to the area of ACFs, some variety would eventually be good.

    But again(I think!) thanks for the idea and for giving me a good starting ground on starting a new project/aquarium.
    Мy darlings :
    0.2.0 Calico and Tuxedo cats Ksyenja and Koshek
    1.1.0 Xenopus leavis Carlos and Cecil
    2?.0.2 Bombina orientalis Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Lenin and Putin
    0.1.0 Grammostola rose Megan Wallaby
    1.1.0 Heterometrus laoticus Ian and Isaac


  17. #12

    Default Impaction

    Actually, when it comes to fertilzation in a fully aquatic environment, there are only 5 option, hardly a lot. All natural, from waste byproduct from any fauna in the tank, which is rarely ever enough unless you keep goldfish, which would be counterproductive because they will eat any flora in the tank. Then you have liquid fertilizers. Next are dry fertilizers. Potassium nitrate being the most important. Next are root tabs and lastly, dirt.

    I always recommend dirt to any beginner as far as plants go because it has numerous advantages. One being is you have plenty of ferts available to the root feeders like crypts and swords as wells as some stem plants that benefits from soil fertilization such as wisteria, water sprite and a few of the ludwigia species. This benefit lasts for YEARS, not a monthly basis, like root tabs. Most beginners eventually have their plants go the wayside because they forget they have to buy root tabs monthly. In the decade or so I have kept aquatic plants, I have seen it time and time again. Soil also keeps your water parameters stable. And, if your water supply is naturally hard, the peat and humus in the soil help naturally buffer the water to a more soft, acidic water, which benefits the plants.

    I have gone every single route there is with aquatic plants, from high lighting, dry ferts and massive amounts of pressurized co2 to low light, dirt setups. By far, dirt were the lowest maintenance. Set it an forget it.

    Now, I am not trying to convince you to go dirt, because I really don't give a flying one. But flooding the forums with threads when you get advice from other threads is just basically, putting one member against another. Not your intention, I am sure, but it is the reality of the situation. I myself, will have no more of it. As far as advice, I am done with you. But I at least wanted to validate WHY I have dirt as a suggestion. Good luck with your tank and your frogs.
    1.0.0 Oophaga Pumilio 'Black Jeans'
    0.0.10 Phyllobates Vittatus
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  18. #13
    100+ Post Member elliotulysses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    Quote Originally Posted by deranged chipmunk View Post
    Actually, when it comes to fertilzation in a fully aquatic environment, there are only 5 option, hardly a lot. All natural, from waste byproduct from any fauna in the tank, which is rarely ever enough unless you keep goldfish, which would be counterproductive because they will eat any flora in the tank. Then you have liquid fertilizers. Next are dry fertilizers. Potassium nitrate being the most important. Next are root tabs and lastly, dirt.

    I always recommend dirt to any beginner as far as plants go because it has numerous advantages. One being is you have plenty of ferts available to the root feeders like crypts and swords as wells as some stem plants that benefits from soil fertilization such as wisteria, water sprite and a few of the ludwigia species. This benefit lasts for YEARS, not a monthly basis, like root tabs. Most beginners eventually have their plants go the wayside because they forget they have to buy root tabs monthly. In the decade or so I have kept aquatic plants, I have seen it time and time again. Soil also keeps your water parameters stable. And, if your water supply is naturally hard, the peat and humus in the soil help naturally buffer the water to a more soft, acidic water, which benefits the plants.

    I have gone every single route there is with aquatic plants, from high lighting, dry ferts and massive amounts of pressurized co2 to low light, dirt setups. By far, dirt were the lowest maintenance. Set it an forget it.

    Now, I am not trying to convince you to go dirt, because I really don't give a flying one. But flooding the forums with threads when you get advice from other threads is just basically, putting one member against another. Not your intention, I am sure, but it is the reality of the situation. I myself, will have no more of it. As far as advice, I am done with you. But I at least wanted to validate WHY I have dirt as a suggestion. Good luck with your tank and your frogs.
    Not my intention at all. I didn't mention members or anyone. I had some people say sand is a must for cycling, others say bare bottom is okay, and I have no idea really which to believe. I wanted a general thread that would have some other advice on the matter.
    I'm glad that you've been keeping plants for years, I haven't had an aquarium since I was very young.
    From what I understood that this was an open forum that had "great advice, friendly people, and lots of frogs" as said in the banner.
    I didn't think your advice was bad, but after hearing other options just gave me other things to think about.
    As it's said "there's more than one way to skin a cat(frog?)". Information is good to have.
    It's a pity that over something so minor you are done with offering possibly valuable advice.
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    2?.0.2 Bombina orientalis Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Lenin and Putin
    0.1.0 Grammostola rose Megan Wallaby
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  20. #14
    Member LeClownBlanc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    Quote Originally Posted by deranged chipmunk View Post

    Now, I am not trying to convince you to go dirt, because I really don't give a flying one. But flooding the forums with threads when you get advice from other threads is just basically, putting one member against another. Not your intention, I am sure, but it is the reality of the situation. I myself, will have no more of it. As far as advice, I am done with you. But I at least wanted to validate WHY I have dirt as a suggestion. Good luck with your tank and your frogs.
    I mainly lurk on here to see advice from other people, and I've read through this entire thread. This thread seems to be more about substrate and if it will cause impaction rather than trying to make members oppose each other. Remember, differing opinions do not mean one is trying to pin people against each other.

    I do not believe there is any problem with getting multiple opinions on a topic...isn't that what forums are for? As a moderator, one would figure that a mod would be more patient and understanding rather than being short with someone who is new and trying to figure things out.

    I fear for rude replies, one of the reasons why I lurk as opposed to posting often.

    "Flooding" the forums seems to be an overstatement, if anything this site should be grateful that Elliot is posing legitimate questions and bringing traffic and activity to the forums. I've gotten a lot of useful advice from his posted threads, and have not felt any sort of nuisance.

    As a moderator myself on other sites, I am conscientious of other's feelings and possible reactions that may happen on the other side of the screen. Bad feelings should not result from a forum that is about amphibian care and advice. I was not aware that there is a limit to how much advice one can be given before the other person is "done".

    And back on topic, this thread seemed useful for me as I am trying to figure out substrate options for myself. I am thankful for users that are helpful and kind.

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  22. #15
    Member LeClownBlanc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    BACK ON TOPIC:

    I bought play sand for the aquarium and did a fairly thorough washing of it. However, I did not sift and there are a few small rocks here and there. I am not sure of the risk. The frogs are nearly 3" and each rock seems to be .25" max. How much of a danger is this?
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    100+ Post Member mpmistr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    Hmm, well I did not intend to give contradictory advice here. Just figured if the goal here is substrate replacement then perhaps just sand would be a more simple method since dirt would require a complete breakdown. There certainly is no right or wrong way to go. All I can really advise is what I know from personal experience. I do know with proper lighting clawed frogs produce plenty of waste to provide nutrients to water column feeding plants with sand as substrate.

    Soil is a great way to go and it's better than root tabs but it also depends what type of plants you want. I like vals and water sprite and even duckweed, the goal for my plants is to provide a lot of hiding locations, basking for the frogs, and act as a biofilter so I've selected fast growing plants with few demands that see feed on nitrates from the water column.

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    Default Re: Impaction

    Quote Originally Posted by LeClownBlanc View Post
    BACK ON TOPIC:

    I bought play sand for the aquarium and did a fairly thorough washing of it. However, I did not sift and there are a few small rocks here and there. I am not sure of the risk. The frogs are nearly 3" and each rock seems to be .25" max. How much of a danger is this?
    I believe there is a very real risk of the frog ingesting a 1/4" pebble.
    It is amazing what they can fit in their mouths!
    If fact, if they are smaller - the risk is even greater ----they will accidentally be 'inhaled' if/when the frog eats off the substrate and collect in its stomach.

    Here is a FF thread you may want to read.
    http://www.frogforum.net/aquatic-cla...avel-help.html

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  27. #18
    100+ Post Member Louis Charles Bruckner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    The chances are minimal but still present.
    I would use a small net to remove them as you see them during cleanings.

    Good luck,



  28. #19
    Member LeClownBlanc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    I hand feed them...so they don't really feed from the bottom.
    I got a picture of what the sand looks like and one can see the pebbles that are causing a concern for this compaction issue..
    Name:  Screen shot 2013-12-04 at 6.13.57 PM.jpg
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    ~children~
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    Cecil & Carlos, two active and growing little froglettes

  29. #20
    Member LeClownBlanc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Impaction

    Quote Originally Posted by LeClownBlanc View Post
    I hand feed them...so they don't really feed from the bottom.
    I got a picture of what the sand looks like and one can see the pebbles that are causing a concern for this compaction issue..
    Name:  Screen shot 2013-12-04 at 6.13.57 PM.jpg
Views: 288
Size:  44.5 KB
    And what to do with the sand? Most sifters would probably let that grain through. Should I pitch the stuff and go with more expensive aquarium sand?
    ~children~
    Ксениа, a beautiful yet mischievous calico cat.
    Cecil & Carlos, two active and growing little froglettes

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