Still Having Problems with my Frogs

[CommanderSil]

Hey, so I have 4 frogs in one 64x62x60 cm enclosure:

Samantha Croaker (after a character in a show), Micah Croakard (after a singer) who are White's Tree Frogs and 3 years old.
Maverick and Jeff (after the Wiggles guy) who are Gillens Tree Frogs and 2 years old.

I've had them 2(?) months

Set-up and feeding:
They have a UV light, climbing and hiding spaces, two waterbowls and a waterfall, fake plants and vinesand 3 covered sides of the tank. They're in my room but I use headphones almost always and don't enter/exit often. I treat their water with Zoomed Repti-safe if it's tap. However, my tap's filter broke and all the other taps in the house are utterly undrinkable so I've gone back to spring water. (Maybe a stupid question, but says it has chloride in it. I assume that's fine as it's naturally there, right?) Temperature is around 25C (77F) but has been getting to 20C (68F) rarely and sometimes up to 27 (80.6F). Humidity rests at 40-50 and I mist it when I am home to keep it around 60. I let them hunt crickets and woodies and treat them to decapitated meal worms and moths rarely. The Gillens will not eat from tweezers and as they all hunt when they feel like it anyway, I find it difficult to give them supplimented food (they're often not in the mood). I change their water and clean up poop daily. I clean the glass whenever it needs a wipe down and clean the decor every month

I only handle them if I absultuely must clean where they are, to try and put them in a container with dusted food or moths (doesn't work, but I still try occasionally), they have some form of strange thing happening and I need a closer look. They get handled at most once a week with washed, rinsed several times and sprayed with dechlorinated water hands.

Previous issue:

They all had problem climbing - they were literally falling off backwards. They seem to all struggle a little other than Maverick. When they were all "sick" with climbing issues, Sam and Micah burried themselves. Sam walked around with her nose rubbing the glass and her head down. They were all lethargic at this point. Sam was "yawning" at this stage/This was just after getting them (settling in stress?) and made it through them all in two weeks.
The current problems:
Micah:
Micah has bad eye-mouth coordination. If I offer his food on tweezers, he misses... He has to try several times. I do see him hunt rarely and he seems to catch food. I don't think he's getting enough though. He has become skinny and I swear he's lost length somehow. He often has his throat puffed up for a few hours after croaking. I've started picking him up from his roost because he often won't come down until very late at night. I had noticed bright/fluoro green spots on him one day, but they disappeared the next. I've seen him experience difficulty climbing recently, but that seems to be be better now.

I weighed him a few weeks back and he was 36g (1.26 ounces).

He had been doing very watery smelly droppings two weeks back. However, they've become healthy again. I haven't seen one in the past week. (Might be hiding)

Samantha:

Poop. Massive, massive poop. Sam has been laying large poops for a while now. Last night trumped them all. The thing was almost as big as she is O.o. It was almost all substrate with what appeared to be skin. She drops one every two or so days.

The girl hasn't slept up high for a few weeks, instead she's been hiding. I had thought it was stress, but I'm beginning to believe it may be something else. I think she can't climb well. She sometimes walks with her head down. The little frogs use her as a seat and have even excreted on her >.>. Does this constitute "bullying" and will it worry her?

She had been a bit overweight but looks like she's lost some. I weighed her a few weeks back and she was 86g (3.03 ounces) - which seems like a lot. The scales mau have been wrong. Last two days I tried giving her food and she seemed off it. She wouldn't eat.

I found her with unshed skin which was really dirty and dried on her. It had been there a few days. I soaked her today and made her rub it off herself by making her walk on my hands. She didn't much appreciate what I had to do to help her get it off (Sprayed bottled water on the stubborn bits on her belly by flipping her).

Here's the main concern. She has a black spot on one of her pads. What is it? It goes through that side of her digit and there is a small spot on the bottom of her pad seperate from this section. It hasn't shown up well in the photo. Is it necrosis? I also will show you a picture of her back. The area had been slightly pink at one stage and it's been lingering as a dislcoured patch. I first noticed it a few weeks back. It's mostly disappeared. I had thought it was just a scrape or normal discolouration and I was too concerned but I noticed today that there are a few black spots there - that with the finger makes me suspect something. I think I noticed this spot a while ago but I have had dreadful memory problems lately :/... No web searches helped me find anything on what this finger wound is. She hasn't - to the best of my knowledge - had a cut or had it squashed. It's not normal, is it?

Do they have a nutrient deficiency which would explain it?
Their substrate is coco husk fine grade - it's used and recommended by the herp store. In fact, I bought it there. After finding that they seem to get bigger mouthfuls of this stuff than their food, I'm thinking I might change it. What should I use though? I don't want to use large stones because they slip down sometimes....

The previous owner hadn't been able to care for them and when I got them their tank was full of burried/hidden poo and the glass was ick. I've been keeping it clean. Could they have a bacteria problem anyway? I only used hot water to clean the tank when I got it. Also, the owner did smoke near them. I hope that hasn't hurt them. Undoubtedly it has.

Since Micah's a bit scrawny, should I increase his dusted cricket frequency? How much should I hand feed and leave for hunting? I don't like the idea of making him even more uncoordinated by only hand feeding. How do I gutload crickets so they don't have to be dusted? It might solve the calcium/vitamin issue.

What do I do about Samanatha? It's really concerning that she hides and has her head down occasionally.

PS At least the big poops are easy to find and always in the one spot. The Gillens do tiny ones much more frequently. They're quite difficult to see.
I've been finding weird bugs in with my crickets (packaged, store bought) recently. It's made me wonder. Do you guys recommend routine de-worming/parasite treatment? What do I use and how often?

Long post but I wanted to make sure you had all the details.

Night everyone! I'll be back in a day or so to find out if I'm doing something wrong with my guys or if there's something I need to do. I know I need a seperate tank for the small guys but I quit my job and a $300 new set-up is out of reach. I'd love to take them to a vet so I could start off ownership knowing they were healthy, but again it costs too much at the moment. Guh, I'm too tired to check for mistakes thoroughly. I think I fixed all of them.

[Mentat]

Hello and sorry your frogs continue to be ill . What I do not understand, is that over a month ago we discussed your frogs health, and the stated problem issues are still uncorrected: http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...off-walls.html. Only thing that appears to have changed, is that your frogs symptoms have gone worse.

You need to stop using the spring water because it has caused your frogs to suffer from Toxic Shock Syndrome (TOS). Spring water can be manipulated by manufacturer so either it becomes over filtered (similar to R/O) and not suitable for frogs, or like in your case, chlorinated. This is bad, causes TOS and some of the listed symptoms confirm it. You are better off using your dechlorinated "utterly undrinkable" tap water than that chlorinated over processed spring. Also, if you used that spring water to mix into substrate or mist; recommend replacing all off it with properly mixed new shredded coco. As a matter of fact; myself would clean and convert the whole enclosure to a hospital set-up until frogs get well. Once correct water is used should give all frogs 20 minute bath's in 80F dechlorinated tap water (recommend Seachem Prime) around chin depth to help them leach out accumulated toxins.

Also, it's critical to raise the temperature to 85F day with up to a 10F drop at night and no more. If your frogs have suffered internal organ damage (kidney's and lymph hearts) due to long term exposure to cold temps, it is irreversible.

You need to feed frogs from a small glass bowl (around 2 in. tall) to better control and monitor their feedings. Use of supplements is mandatory and can use these schedules according to their size: http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html.

There might be more issues since the frogs immune systems are weak, due to TOS and low temperatures. Would not be surprised if there are parasites involved; but only a fecal test will identify that. You might need to set-up separate hospital enclosure to address this and/or prevent ongoing bullying (could be related to mixing species stress). I'm sorry; but not correcting the water or temperature issues will probably lead to more health issues and frogs demise .

[CommanderSil]

Hello and sorry your frogs continue to be ill . What I do not understand, is that over a month ago we discussed your frogs health, and the stated problem issues are still uncorrected: http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...off-walls.html. Only thing that appears to have changed, is that your frogs symptoms have gone worse.

You need to stop using the spring water because it has caused your frogs to suffer from Toxic Shock Syndrome (TOS). Spring water can be manipulated by manufacturer so either it becomes over filtered (similar to R/O) and not suitable for frogs, or like in your case, chlorinated. This is bad, causes TOS and some of the listed symptoms confirm it. You are better off using your dechlorinated "utterly undrinkable" tap water than that chlorinated over processed spring. Also, if you used that spring water to mix into substrate or mist; recommend replacing all off it with properly mixed new shredded coco. As a matter of fact; myself would clean and convert the whole enclosure to a hospital set-up until frogs get well. Once correct water is used should give all frogs 20 minute bath's in 80F dechlorinated tap water (recommend Seachem Prime) around chin depth to help them leach out accumulated toxins.

Also, it's critical to raise the temperature to 85F day with up to a 10F drop at night and no more. If your frogs have suffered internal organ damage (kidney's and lymph hearts) due to long term exposure to cold temps, it is irreversible.

You need to feed frogs from a small glass bowl (around 2 in. tall) to better control and monitor their feedings. Use of supplements is mandatory and can use these schedules according to their size: http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html.

There might be more issues since the frogs immune systems are weak, due to TOS and low temperatures. Would not be surprised if there are parasites involved; but only a fecal test will identify that. You might need to set-up separate hospital enclosure to address this and/or prevent ongoing bullying (could be related to mixing species stress). I'm sorry; but not correcting the water or temperature issues will probably lead to more health issues and frogs demise .

I was using my tap water from that point until now, but the filter broke and specs of something strange contaminate the water. I'd use the bathroom water, but it tastes, quite bluntly, of feces. I believe we have a problem with our plumbing. I've been trying to get my mother to get the tap replaced but she hasn't. She's been generally unco-operative when it comes to me trying to solve some of these issues. The ingredients are listed on the spring water and there is no chlorine. Returning to spring water was supposed to be a temporary measure.


The temperature is usually at 25-27C. Very rarely is it below due to spring weather getting ridiculously cold and I'm waiting on a thermostat to be delivered (still). I don't want to get a higher wattage globe because there's been really hot days recently too....

Is it normal for frogs to urinate when shedding? I've seen my female White's do it and just then I heard squeking so I looked. One of the little ones was shedding, surrounded by a pool of pee. What's worrying is that I don't know if the discolouration were due to the wooden log (the previous owner had it in there so I assumed they cleaned it) or it was tinged red/brown from blood. Now I'm concerned that this log might be a contributor.

I think it's more a fact of I'm noticing these things more rather than them getting worse. The previous owner didn't state any health conditions, but thinking back on it the way she said she couldn't care for them and desperately needed someone to take care of them may have been an indicator of something. They have such a large terrarium but only a 60W globe. I don't think their temperature has ever been right. Also, their former living conditions were revolting. The walls were covered in slime, there was so much poop everywhere.... Also, as I said, the previous owner smoked near them. I can't imagine what that would do to them. They didn't dechlorinate water either.

The Gillens Tree Frogs seem to be much healthier than their older counterparts. On the note of seperate housing I thought I had bought a suitable tank from eBay, but the seller listed the dimensions in the wrong order. I'll bite the bullet and spend my next few pays on a second terrarium and lighting/heating/another thermostat.

I talked to a lady at the pet store and she suggested I dump them in a feeding container for an hour or more at a time to get them to eat. I had tried putting them in for 10 minutes, but I believed any more would stress them too much. I had put them in a high sided container, would a lower one work better?


What substrate is a good permanent solution to them eating it? Or should I stop feeding them in the terrarium completely?

I'm worried about my buddies and I feel that I'm letting them down. I fix the temperature - spring weather decides to act up and I come home to find their terrarium at 20C instead of the 27C it was when I left. I get a dechlorinator and use tap water - the tap breaks. I buy a tank for them - the dimensions were listed incorrectly and it's too small. I buy a night lamp for them - the batteries explode. I buy a seconde thermometer to check accuracy/ temperature at both end of tanks - it breaks. I buy gloves to handle them/change the water dish - I notice they've left powder all over the door when I open it. I used a little room heater to bring up the temperature - it broke. Got another one - it didn't work. Got a timer for the light - it didn't work. I get my mother to change the water dish as I have chemicals on my hands, she decides to move the fake fern for some unknown reason and smash it into the girl despite me telling her to stop . This really hasn't been working out at all. I'm just glad my suburb hasn't been hit by a blackout or "power maintenance" by the electricity company as it usually is in spring. Then this series of failures would be complete . Oh, though there's other stuff ups such as faulty Exo Terra stuff I bought for them and had to replace numerous times... The list would be too long to list, honestly. There's been so many technical failures. I just hope I can get it fixed before it's too late and they can live long and happy lives.

Is that digit on the girl alright though?

Thankfully I saw a normal sized poop from the girl last night. It was still full of substrate.

When I get the thermostat at long last, it better not be faulty *face desk*.

The most annoying thing is that I state that there's problems with my frogs to my mother and, for example, the tap needs fixing so they can have tap water.

I'll see what I can do about a "hospital" set up. That's just a water dish, hide spot and climbing branch on paper towel substrate, right? Or can I keep a plastic plant in there they like to hide behind and just clean it frequently? Thanks for your help (again). As you can imagine I'm rather frustrated by this whole ordeal....

[CommanderSil]

I bought a Brita filter as a temporary fix to the problem. It also removes copper and lead so I might use it permenantly regardless. It says it releases trace amounts silver into the water. Is that safe for them? Couldn't find it on the net and I want to wait until I'm sure.


I've started removing everything and cleaning it with vinegar.

I tried putting one of the small frogs in a container with dusted crickets. He ate one after the dusting had come off of it. With the glass bowl method, how will that help me track who's eating? Or am I meant to seperate them for that? In any case, though I've struggled with dusting crickets, I've at least been gutloading them...

As I said the younger frogs are very zippy. I don't imagine that anything is wrong with them (yet). I'm not convinced that the spring water is the problem. After boiling the log I think it's likely a factor. All the junk coming out of it... And they like to sit on it. I might replace it with something I know hasn't been exposed to pesticides as I don't know how well cleaning removes these things.

[flybyferns]

Carlos has covered everything

Sorry you are having so many 'struggles'. It's all fixable.

Review----Here is short list

1- ****de-chlorinated tap water ONLY ...use the de-chlorinator in the bottled water as well ****
( save gallon containers --- and make a few ahead of time for yourself )

2-dust all feeders ( freshly ) every day.....remove un-eaten food from the bowl /clean the bowl/ replace with newly dusted feeder just before lights out ( the frog that is having trouble eating likely has a calcium deficiency ) **** must dust*** gut-loading cricks is NOT enough!

3-maintain proper temps

4-separate the species into two different enclosures
a) this will also solve the problem of competition for food)
b) a smaller temporary enclosure is better than leaving them together ( use flat/ very dampened paper towel ( de- chlor water- only ) for substrate temporarily)

5-after separating them breakdown the original enclosure / sterilize it) and replace the substrate when you can ( again --- use dampened paper towel ( de- chlor water- only ) for substrate temporarily)

6-if you question the wood you are using is not amphibian safe - get rid of it

Use dampened paper towel for substrate for now and save your $$ for more important things like de-chlorinator , new thermometers and a FRESH container of Calcium/Vit D supplement

If you are cleaning -- be sure to rinse , rinse, rinse rinse !
Wash your hands !!! before , between tanks, and after !

[CommanderSil]

Hey, thanks. Sorry I got so stressed out, everything is a it messed up outside of frogville at the moment (and I was put on this aweful asthma medicine which makes me really depressed and should be avoided at all costs :/). Then my internet was capped so I couldn't load the site.

I got rid of the wood when I'd last posted and noticed that Sam was now climbing and behaving less lethargic - she's been coming out of her cave early at night !

Micah has had lime green spots coming and going and I noticed one on Maverick, so I've put them in a hospital set up just recently. As I said, Micah's had them before, but they disappeared quickly. He's lost his croak, he just makes pathetic squeaks >.>...

I tried the glass bowl method, but my frogs just stare at the crickets through the glass....

BUT with paper towel as substrate I can monitor what they're eating more easily. I've been dusting calcium one day and multivitamin the next with gutloaded crickets, removing the uneaten ones (which has only been about 1). I can feed them wood roaches now too because they can't burry themselves and hide.

Would a plastic tub with the top cut out and fly screen glues on top do for a temporary habitat? I have no way of heating it though. I've discovered that whilst the male White's barks like a dog, the Gillens when stress mew like kittens (I had to put them in a little container whilst cleaning the tank, poor things). It's like keeping cats and dogs in the one enclosed space...

Heating is now a steady 26-27C during the day and 24 at night. Finally got my theromstat. Which of course was faulty and I had to fix !

Oh, and my boy's tried mating with my girl, so he can't be that sick.

I'm wiping down the enclosure with vinegar and rinsing well once a week. Everthing in there is getting cleaned with vinegar, then steam cleaned, then rinsed once a week. I'm giving the water bowls that vinegar + steam combination once every two days and of course wiping them out every day.


Can I use clear tape to secure the wires from the thermostat to the interior of the tank so frogs don't do stupid things on it?

It'll take a few weeks but I should have a large payment coming through soon and I can buy the Gillens their own terrarium. But they're like best friends with the White's. Jeff lets Micah rest his head on him like a pillow when he sleeps. I'll also see a vet at this time. I said this last time, but, well, I've been owed this money a while and it should have come in last month or so.


Ah, the black edge on Sam's finger has gotten like 0.5 mm thicker during this time. Also, with her climbing a lot more, she's done something and got cuts on her. What do I do to treat them? They aren't infected and seem to be healing but especially with them being not 100% I don't want to risk it. I heard somewhere say Camomile tea, but that's not proven to be antibacterial. I have Manuka honey, will that do?

Micah has one regular poop, then the next one is runny it seems. *Shrugs*