What is the BEST roach alternative for B.Dubia roaches?

[NialR35]

Hello,

I live in FL and apparently, B.Dubias are illegal(FML). So what is a good alternative for a roach colony in order to save some money? I really was planning to breed Dubias to feed my frogs but can't do it in FL. Anything similar to Dubias as far as nutritive value and breeding efficiency?

[JeffreH]

Sorry, didn't notice your thread. I answered your question in Mathew's topic but will re-post my reply here along with some additional tidbits of information:

The following species are legal in Florida:
Blaberus discoidalis
Blaberus craniifer
Eurycotis floridana
Panchlora nivea
MALE Gromphadorhina portentosa
Pynoscelus surinamensis

Roaches tend to have roughly the same nutritional value across the board; though the actual meat:shell ratio and composition of micronutrients will vary. All of these make for possible staple feeders.

I would recommend Blaberus discoidalis (discoid roaches, false death heads) for Blaptica dubia replacement. Similar size, similar reproductive rate, and do not fly or climb. The only major difference is they are not sexually dimorphic like B. dubia.


B. dubia might be the most popular roach out there but that does not mean they are the best. If we're being completely honest, I think there are several species that are superior to dubia that are often overlooked in the hobby... it depends on what you want in a feeder. There are trade-offs between high reproductive rate, high activity, palatability, meat:shell ratio, live-birth vs. oothecae, ability to climb smooth surfaces, ability to fly, etc.

[NialR35]

Thanks Jeff!

I was researching Blaberus discoidalis but can't find any website that sells them.....Do you guys recommend a site for roaches(except Dubias)?

It kinda sucks that they are not sexually dimorphic because I guess when feeding time comes you can't tell between male or female and you don't want to end up feeding all your females lol...

My LPS only has something called "Florida broad keys head roach" or something like that....is that among one of the species you suggested? I mainly wanted something as close to Dubias because they cant fly nor climb and reproduce fast enough.

[JeffreH]

Thanks Jeff!

I was researching Blaberus discoidalis but can't find any website that sells them.....Do you guys recommend a site for roaches(except Dubias)?

It kinda sucks that they are not sexually dimorphic because I guess when feeding time comes you can't tell between male or female and you don't want to end up feeding all your females lol...

I think a lot of B. disoidalis in hobby are actually hybrids of discoids and other Blaberus species. Regardless, they are still great feeders and their overall morphology and reproduction is about the same (if not faster) than pure cultures.

I've not done any business with FL supplies personally, but happened across this ad on our forum:
http://www.frogforum.net/sale-trade/...etfeeders.html

You would need to order from someone who lives in Florida unless a permit for shipping is obtained to my knowledge.

Also - sexing becomes quite easy with practice = ) I can retrieve some photos when I have more time and teach you to differentiate the sexes. You won't be able to do it easily at a glance, but upon brief inspection of the abdomen you'll be able to sort the sexes with relative ease at feeding time. Also, unless you are feeding large frogs, the adults are impressive in size and you will likely find yourself feeding off nymphs much of the time anyway.

[CJ PELCHER]

Contrary to a lot of the hype, dubia roaches are not an ideal feeder... The problem with dubia and a number of other roach species is that they store urates as a protien source. The highest levels of the urates are found in the males and the growing nymphs. In any case, these urates can impact a number of systems for the frogs..including causing fluid retention, kidney and joint damage... They are acceptable to use as an occasional item, but I strongly suggest not using them as a staple in any herp diet.
.

-ED (DENDROBOARD)

[SCF]

Contrary to a lot of the hype, dubia roaches are not an ideal feeder... The problem with dubia and a number of other roach species is that they store urates as a protien source. The highest levels of the urates are found in the males and the growing nymphs. In any case, these urates can impact a number of systems for the frogs..including causing fluid retention, kidney and joint damage... They are acceptable to use as an occasional item, but I strongly suggest not using them as a staple in any herp diet.
.

Interesting, where was this information found?

[SCF]

and what is an ideal feeder?

[CJ PELCHER]

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/foo...aple-food.html

[JeffreH]

Contrary to a lot of the hype, dubia roaches are not an ideal feeder... The problem with dubia and a number of other roach species is that they store urates as a protien source. The highest levels of the urates are found in the males and the growing nymphs. In any case, these urates can impact a number of systems for the frogs..including causing fluid retention, kidney and joint damage... They are acceptable to use as an occasional item, but I strongly suggest not using them as a staple in any herp diet.
.

I personally believe this is an issue with excessive protein in the diet. At some point in time, someone thought (for whatever reason) that cockroaches require a high protein diet. This information perpetuated in the interwebs and I recall many years ago Roach gutloads and various products boasting higher protein content. It seemed that higher protein leads to larger sized adults; but what is not accounted for is the fact that cockroaches are decomposers of detritus in most parts of the world...Carbon-heavy food product.

Excess protein in a cockroach diet leads to ketone production and uric acid buildup because they simply cannot process an abundance of protein. I've read that diets with <4% protein are ideal for Blatella germanica fitness. If cockroaches are fed a proper diet that is low in protein, the herps and the roaches benefit.

[SCF]

I personally believe this is an issue with excessive protein in the diet. At some point in time, someone thought (for whatever reason) that cockroaches require a high protein diet. This information perpetuated in the interwebs and I recall many years ago Roach gutloads and various products boasting higher protein content. It seemed that higher protein leads to larger sized adults; but what is not accounted for is the fact that cockroaches are decomposers of detritus in most parts of the world...Carbon-heavy food product.

Excess protein in a cockroach diet leads to ketone production and uric acid buildup because they simply cannot process an abundance of protein. I've read that diets with <4% protein are ideal for Blatella germanica fitness. If cockroaches are fed a proper diet that is low in protein, the herps and the roaches benefit.

So you are personally debunking this theory on B. Dubia not being an "ideal feeder" ?

[JeffreH]

The roach you speak of I believe is Hemiblabera tenbricosa, also called the Horseshoe Crab Roach. They are a Florida native and are therefore acceptable to culture.

I've not kept them, but I believe they are more often cultured by cockroach hobbyists for display. I'm not sure how prolific they are, but I'm sure they are fine to feed at least.

If you want more info about them I can contact someone who would definitely know all of the details.