URGENT- Sick Golden Bell Frog- HELP NEEDED

[Heatheranne]

I too am thinking malnutrition is the culprit here. Use the calcium with vitaminD3 supplement lightly dusted on the food, or you can use the Flukers liquid calcium supplement in a soak. Read the instructions. It's only a couple drops or so in the soak.

It sounds as though your frog has tetany. Tetany is a group of symptoms caused by low blood calcium levels. Calcium is not absorbed properly without vitamin D3 when taken in orally, so be sure the supplement is calcium with vitamin D3, phosphorus-free.

Tetany symptoms: numbness, tingling, twitching, tremors, lack of motor or mobility control, uncoordinated movements, seizures, paralysis, inactivity of the intestines such as when peristalsis or the contracting motion of the gut stops causing constipation and bloating, inability to control musculature of the jaw and tongue, cardiac dysrhythmias etc.

Calcium helps us control our musculature and therefore our bones that are attached to those muscles. It also affects organ/smooth muscle and heart/cardiac muscle. It also gives our "bone cells" structural strength. Without calcium these action potentials within the muscles have varying degrees of inability to use these muscles or their usual functions anywhere from odd motions, to uncoordinated motions, to paralysis of the muscle, bone, or organ involved. Long story short, they need calcium to survive and without it which ever function involved will eventually cease to function.

Other micronutrients such as sodium, potassium, magnesium play a roles in the functions of skeletal, cardiac and smooth (organ) muscle.

Frogs in the wild eat insects that eat calcium-rich plants and frogs may soak in mineral rich ponds or puddles plus have UVB light from the sun to help their bodies produce their own vitamin D3. In captivity we have to provide the supplements for them.

Being they were not provided with a supplemented diet, I have a strong suspicion that this is the reasons for the twitching, which needs to be corrected soon or the functions will be irretrievable and/or will die. If you start supplementing now and he eats, this process can be stopped and proper functions will resume .

The electrolyte solution will help to provide sugar/dextrose for energy, and sodium and potassium which will help with some of the electrolyte/nutrient deficiencies.

If he will not eat for you, try the liquid calcium drops in a soak.


Do not use more than the recommended dose, because too high of a dose too fast can cause toxicity.

I'll break it down for you in case you decide to use it. There's no need to remember this calculation, but here it is in case you'd like to refer to it later. The dose is only 1/2 teaspoon (2.5ml) (* corrected*) in 8 oz (240ml) of dechlorinated water. Divide the 2.5ml by 2.5 and you get 1ml of medicine per 96ml. There are approx. 10 small drops in 1ml or you could say each drop equals about 0.1ml. So for a large frog it would be approx 10 drops (1ml) per 98ml in a soak. There are are 30ml in one ounce for estimation of US measurements.

For a small frog of 1" or less I'd use only 1/4 to 1/5 that dose, or approx. 2 to 2.5 drops (0.2 to 0.25ml) of the calcium per 98ml of soak water. Or in English , about 2 to 2 1/2 small drops in approx. 3 ounces of soak water. One of the small children sized medicine measuring cups is usually a 30ml cup and makes it easy to measure your water.

Soak for about 15 to 20 minutes daily until symptoms resolve or until he begins eating the calcium-powdered food. Then stop the calcium soaks. The calcium soaks are a temporary treatment and the calcium with vita D3 is better regulated by the frog's body in terms of absorption and is the best choice when healthy.

Use the powdered-calcium on his food daily until symptoms resolve and then switch to using the supplement every other day.

Use a multivitamin supplement lightly dusted one day a week, but not in the same day as the calcium, for proper absorption of the micronutrients.

Hope this helps .

If this gets too wordy, just ignore the extensive data and take in the basics . I love to educate .

[BlueKiwiOca]

If you have not located the plain baby electrolyte solution, just offer some food and see if frog will eat .

Tried offering Mr Blobby some dusted wingless fruit flies after a nice relaxing honey bath... but to no avail. He's still very bloated, with a rounded tummy, and when I held him up to the light (on a plastic spoon lol) I could see a dark shape to one side of his belly... probably his stomach, but I've not seen it so prominently on any of the other frogs I have. Because he was in a terrarium with bark substrate (before I removed it) and being fed on mealie worms, is it possible he's impacted? How can I get him to pass the impaction if he has one?

[BlueKiwiOca]

Ah Heather, didn't see your post there for some reason!

Finally an answer! Thank you so much for all the information, you are a star

As I said before (I think) I tried to get Mr Blobby to nom on some calcium+D3 dusted fruit flies, but to no avail
Knowing New Zealand, this amazing liquid calcium will prove very difficult to get, if not impossible.. we have inadequate exotic pet supplies here if I bought some online, chances are it would arrive in a couple of weeks, which will no doubt be too late for my poor froggy.

I do however have calcium powder. Would mixing a small amount of powder with water, and then soaking Mr Blobby in that serve the same purpose? *waits for someone to point out the painfully obvious flaw in this plan*

[Heatheranne]

The calcium in the liquid is calcium chloride and calcium citrate vs calcium carbonate in the powdered supplement.

I do not know if calcium carbonate mixed with water will work for absorption.

This is what I do know:
CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) in pure water is insoluble, meaning it does not truly dissolve. It will be in the form of a precipitate. Basically it will either float on the water or will sink to the bottom.

When added to HCl (Hydrochloric acid as in our stomachs) and H20 (water) the equation changes and therefore can be absorbed as calcium chloride. Calcium chloride's ph is around 8, making it an alkaline. This is why Tums works in the stomach...calcium chloride is absorbable. Because calcium chloride is a base, it helps to neutralize the stomach's HCl to become less acidic. Basically, acid plus base (alkaline compound) equals neutral, if ions are present for bonding.
http://lrs.ed.uiuc.edu/students/erli...ground/ph.html

Problem is, if we mix the calcium carbonate to try and create a soluble solution, salt is usually needed and/or acid containing the chloride ion. Such as sodium chloride or calcium chloride. This is a dilemma because calcium chloride's alkalinity in its own solution (without HCl acid) can cause alkaline burns. See, because it is not neutralized by the acid as would be in our stomachs.

Calcium citrate (citric acid) is added to calcium chloride in the Flukers liquid calcium supplement to neutralize the base/alkalinity of calcium chloride, again creating a neutral ph, making is safe for absorption. A neutral pH of 7 will not cause burns.

So...calcium carbonate with water remains insoluble or unable to dissolve. Adding salt makes it soluble, but creates calcium chloride which is alkalinic and causes burns.

We must also take caution in mixing such compounds because tap water carries trace elements and ions, which could again alter the mixture, and, we carry salt within our skin as sweat. If you were to try it, I would only use distilled water and only wear gloves, but I believe the chemistry of the calcium would fail for absorption. Another question is, what chemicals are within the frogs' skin? Quite the dilemma.

I think your best bet is to try and get the little fella eating with the powdered supplement, unless you can get the Flukers liquid supplement for a soak.

---------------------------------------------------

As for the belly...he sounds impacted. The honey soaks are the safe home remedy. He likely won't be hungry until the situation is resolved.

This is tough, because he is likely malnourished and has nutritional and electrolyte deficiencies, yet if is impacted, will not eat.

The treatment in an otherwise healthy frog with good nutritional status is to do the soaks with honey and to avoid feeding until the impaction clears. This is so we do not add to the impaction. The honey is a natural emollient which when absorbed helps to pass the obstruction. We provide soaks for hydration and to help draw in water to soften the impaction if it is stool. We give pedialyte soaks to provide dextrose (sugar) and electrolytes as needed, as noted in my previous post.

So, we need to clear his obstruction, if that is the cause.

:/

[BlueKiwiOca]

As for the belly...he sounds impacted. The honey soaks are the safe home remedy. He likely won't be hungry until the situation is resolved.

This is tough, because he is likely malnourished and has nutritional and electrolyte deficiencies, yet if is impacted, will not eat.

The treatment in an otherwise healthy frog with good nutritional status is to do the soaks with honey and to avoid feeding until the impaction clears. This is so we do not add to the impaction. The honey is a natural emollient which when absorbed helps to pass the obstruction. We provide soaks for hydration and to help draw in water to soften the impaction if it is stool. We give pedialyte soaks to provide dextrose (sugar) and electrolytes as needed, as noted in my previous post.

So, we need to clear his obstruction, if that is the cause.

:/

I guess I kinda knew the calcium powder-in-water thing wouldn't work... it's why they sell liquid calcium!

I gave Mr Blobby another honey bath this morning to try clear the impaction, and after two days without it, the twitching started... I had to pull him out because he flipped onto his back its so sad to watch. I'm going to try give him another one, because this impaction needs to go ASAP so we can start on other stuff.

I'm at a loss as for what to do about calcium in the meantime. He really needs it obviously, but he won't and can't eat dusted feeders, and New Zealand is useless because we don't have liquid supplements. I can try look on eBay and pay a fortune for overnight shipping I guess.. but then my parents will get angry at me for spending so much money on a pet. Ugh. What a disaster.

[Heatheranne]

I'm so sorry . It's so kind of you to rescue them though.

How small is he? Can you guess his measurement from nose to butt?

[Heatheranne]

There is some on eBay... I'm not sure how long it would take to get there, but a good thing to have on hand anyhow.

[BlueKiwiOca]

I'm so sorry . It's so kind of you to rescue them though.

How small is he? Can you guess his measurement from nose to butt?

Now that I can do he's about 1" long/ 2.5cm...

[BlueKiwiOca]

Ah yes, I saw that auction... Doesn't ship to New Zealand though

[Heatheranne]

Could you gently force feed him a small bit of reptaboost?

[BlueKiwiOca]

Could you gently force feed him a small bit of reptaboost?

I probably could, but New Zealand doesn't have it... I feel like I'm being unintentionally difficult here, I'm sorry >.< I'll order some online, but as with anything it won't arrive for a few weeks.. sometimes it's REALLY annoying being on an island on the other side of the world!

[EmJay]

I didn't know the liquid vitamins could be used as a soak, duh! If I'd only known sooner...

They have Flukers liquid vitamin and Jurassi-Cal liquid calcium at Hollywood Fish Farm (Cnr of Tawa Drive and Rosedale Road in Albany) and at least the Flukers at Bird Barn (Corner of Lincoln & Pomaria Rds in Henderson). About $25-$29, depending on where you go and which you choose.

[Edit: Forgot PetStop in Mt Eden, who usually have Flukers liquid vitamins, and may or may not have liquid calcium. If you are really stuck for transport, there's always TradeMe, but you'll probably end up buying from either HollywoodFF's or PetStop's TMe accounts anyway, and their TMe prices are a dollar or so dearer than their shop prices, plus postage - but, at least it will be posted to you, rather than you trying to get to them. Postage might work out a similar price to paying for trains/buses anyway...
(If I drove, I'd love to help you out, but I'm stuck out west with only public transport, so I can't even get myself to HFF, and I really need a UVB lamp, too... Why are cars so expensive?!?) ]

[Heatheranne]

I probably could, but New Zealand doesn't have it... I feel like I'm being unintentionally difficult here, I'm sorry &gt;.&lt; I'll order some online, but as with anything it won't arrive for a few weeks.. sometimes it's REALLY annoying being on an island on the other side of the world!

Oh no, don't feel that way. Just trying to help is all.

[Heatheranne]

I didn't know the liquid vitamins could be used as a soak, duh! If I'd only known sooner...

They have Flukers liquid vitamin and Jurassi-Cal liquid calcium at Hollywood Fish Farm (Cnr of Tawa Drive and Rosedale Road in Albany) and at least the Flukers at Bird Barn (Corner of Lincoln &amp; Pomaria Rds in Henderson). About $25-$29, depending on where you go and which you choose.

[Edit: Forgot PetStop in Mt Eden, who usually have Flukers liquid vitamins, and may or may not have liquid calcium. If you are really stuck for transport, there's always TradeMe, but you'll probably end up buying from either HollywoodFF's or PetStop's TMe accounts anyway, and their TMe prices are a dollar or so dearer than their shop prices, plus postage - but, at least it will be posted to you, rather than you trying to get to them. Postage might work out a similar price to paying for trains/buses anyway...
(If I drove, I'd love to help you out, but I'm stuck out west with only public transport, so I can't even get myself to HFF, and I really need a UVB lamp, too... Why are cars so expensive?!?) ]

Yes, the Flukers liquid calcium is safe for soaks.

[BlueKiwiOca]

WOOHOO!
I woke up this morning, checked Mr Blobby, and the first thing I see is an almighty poop on the leaf he was sitting on yesterday I don't think I've ever been so happy to see a poop in my life! Either Mr Blobby got to work, or those honey baths did, either way, is it safe to say that impaction is gone?

I'm going to try to give him some food today, try get some calcium into him hopefully I don't have to go all the way out to Albany to get liquid calcium! Thanks for the names of the shops though Emjay, that's super helpful, and I'll grab some soon

Thank you both for all your help, I think we still have a way to go yet but this poop is a massive improvement

[Heatheranne]

Yay!!!! Great job!

[BlueKiwiOca]

Didn't manage to get any food into him today, and we had a little bit of toe twitching, but I'll try again tomorrow... maybe he was just tired haha.. Anyway, I have another problem frog he's been sitting on the floor of the terrarium the whole time I've had him, and was a dull colour... I started a new thread, I don't suppose you could take a look?
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/24463-red-leg.html

[Heatheranne]

Lets start from the beginning...

Can you please copy and paste your answers to these questions?

“Trouble in the Frog Enclosure” The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.

1. Size of enclosure?

2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences?

3. Humidity?

4. Temperature?

5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish?

6. Materials used for substrate?

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials. - How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv?

8. Main food source?

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often?)

10. Lighting?

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure?

12. When is the last time he/she ate?

13. Have you found poop lately?

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)

15. How old is the frog?

16. How long have you owned him/her?

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred?

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats?

19. How often the frog is handled?

20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area?

21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

[BlueKiwiOca]

Mr Blobby (the one with impaction/ tetany) deteriorated today, so my grandma kindly drove me 30 mins out to Bird Barn in Henderson, where we bought an avian liquid calcium- Avi-Cal. The reptile specialist there said that people with lizards used it and that if I adjusted the dose for a frog, it would do. So I used Heather's instructions for the Fluker's calcium, put him in the bath, and he's currently sitting in there happily enough. He won't eat, but I'll continue to update you all.

[Heatheranne]

Was he pretty lethargic earlier? Twitching?

Is it possible for you to read the ingredients in the supplement for me?

Crossing fingers for you!