Green & Gold turned BROWN..!

[EmJay]

Okay, I know that frogs will change colour when it's cold, to camouflage, with stress, etc., and I know there aren't too many G&G Bell frog owners on here, but...

My previously standard-coloured Green & Golden has turned dark brown! Not just darker green, which she's done before, but seriously brown! I'm hoping it's the cold, but she didn't do that last winter... She's moving and responding, but hasn't eaten in several days (again, wintering, I hope).

Froggley in November 2012 (Late Spring - N.B. flash)


Froggley in July 2013 (Winter - no flash; didn't want to stress her)


Am I just being over-anxious, or do I need to fix something?

[Mentat]

Hello and welcome to FF! Sorry your frog is apparently not well. I read your other thread (http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...tml#post184967) and wonder if this color change is related to the "substandard housing" you mentioned. In order to help you better, could you please answer these questions about it's current enclosure. Thank you !

“Trouble in the Frog Enclosure”
The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.

1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog
16. How long have you owned him/her
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
19. How often the frog is handled
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.

[EmJay]

Hi, thank you for your reply. I moved her tank into the sunshine and she's less-brown, but still not her usual dark-to-light green, so some of it may be temperature-related, some may be related to her hiding out in a dark aquarium ornament for a few weeks. I'm still concerned enough to take any and all advice, though.

1. Size of enclosure - 18 litre (approx 5 gallon?) plastic tank. Prev 40? litre glass tank had to stay when we moved house. I'm currently trying to find a reasonably-priced second-hand terrarium, but so far no luck. Will resort to an aquarium with DIY mesh top if all else fails.

2. # of inhabitants - Just this one frog. Prob-female golden bell frog, about 55mm (2") long.

3. Humidity - no idea; I have no measurement tools. Not terribly high, as there's no condensation, but there's plenty of water in the tank.

4. Temperature - again, no idea. Fairly cold as it's unheated, but then GBFs are endemic to the area, so tank temp is still higher than what it would be in the wild.

5. Water - purchased natural spring water, usually aired/set out for a while prior to going in the tank.

6. Materials used for substrate - currently just large pebbles/stones; floor is bare in the interests of hygiene over aesthetics. Have prev. had a natural set-up with clean soil, rocks, ferns.

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials. - Aforementioned stones/small rocks, one potted fern that is soon to be replaced (it's getting big enough to shed hairs, so I want it gone). Prev had an aquarium castle, which I've ditched as too-hard-to-clean, and a resin food dish that was a pain in the butt. Needs more climby-things and plants, yes, but I don't have anything on hand right now that I consider clean/non-toxic enough. I need a trip to the pet store after I get paid.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv. - All items are scrubbed and boiled before going in.

8. Main food source - Flies & mealworms (I now know better than to feed her mealies very often, hooray for care sheets!).

9. Vitamins and calcium? - I need to get some (prev. didn't know about it, and then when I found out, it took me a little while to find somewhere local that sells spray/powder). Tried reptile vitamin sticks a couple of months ago; she's not interested. :-/

10. Lighting - none. Out of budget so far, and I've been told bell frogs don't need them?

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure - moving it into the sun for a while each day where possible. The weather is getting quite dark now, so I'm willing to look at heating options if necessary (although she seemed fine last winter).

12. When is the last time he/she ate - Based on the number of bug-corpses I pulled from the tank when I cleaned it yesterday, I'm guessing about a week ago? I'll try again tonight, I suppose. She doesn't look thin, though.

13. Have you found poop lately - no, but she seems to have a bad habit of pooping in the water where it breaks up and disperses, so it's hard to tell.

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure

[camera batteries currently flat; will update this evening]

15. How old is the frog - about 18 months, from memory (I'm guessing we count from morph, rather than hatch, or..?)

16. How long have you owned him/her - from a 6-week-old tadpole (19ish months total)

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred - wild caught as a tadpole, raised in captivity

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats - not diverse enough, IMO. Prev. had a spray-free garden that provided varied food, but have moved house, and I don't trust the local environment to be clean and healthy. Feeding store-bought flies and mealworms (see above), with slaters when I can catch them in a non-toxic looking part of the property.

19. How often the frog is handled - not often. She doesn't seem to like it, so I'm scared to stress her.

20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area - high traffic area, but well out of the way. Is covered in a cloth at night time to attempt some kind of circadian rhythm (we have a lot of ambient un-natural night time light).

21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc) - fresh water topped up weekly, full clean 3-4 weekly or when it looks messy. Flotsam fished out when I can see/reach it, but with the water/pebbles it has a tendency to break up and sink into the cracks (this makes syphoning kind of difficult).

[EmJay]

Camera's up now, so here's a pic for #14. (That's Froggley's rear poking out of the entrance to her hidey-cave.)

It's very bare right now, as I have pared everything back in an effort to eliminate factors that might be contributing to her withdrawn behaviour - seems to have worked a bit, as she's looking happier and more active, and her colour has improved to a pale khaki green. I'm hoping to get to the pet shop in the weekend and get some clean wood to add climbing height (as well as vitamins and a new box of flies). Fingers crossed I can get an affordable second-hand terrarium on auction this weekend...

[Mentat]

Hello and thanks for the pics and answers Em. I'm glad frog is a bit better . Well, not knowing the temperature and humidity in any enclosure is a risk; but in a small one the risk is bigger. Understand you are local to the frog, but there are a couple things I would correct. Saw a few care sheets, and this one is easy to read: Green and Gold Bell Frog Sandfire Dragon Ranch .

Without a filter, would recommend doing 50% water changes daily. That is very important because the only bacteria converting ammonia to nitrites (bad) and then to nitrates (not so bad) live in surface of the stones and decor, which is not much. Your enclosure is small and the limited water volume can become a toxic bath for your frog in a short time. When you get a larger enclosure that might not be as bad or you could use a small foam filter in it.

The second thing that could be stressing frog is the lack of a hot basking area under UV light. From what I'm reading, these frogs like to bask close to lamp and then jump into water to cool off. Again, the size of it's enclosure does not allow a temp. gradient to be built. Without a thermometer have to be very careful if using sunlight or lamp to heat it because it could get too hot inside very quickly. Think these 2 items should be prioritized to reduce your frog's stress and both can be worked on once you get frog a suitable larger enclosure, good luck on your search!

[EmJay]

Thank you again, you're terribly helpful. All the science behind "putting a small animal in a tank with some water" is much more complicated (and expensive) than I was led to believe back when I agreed to keep the frog! Still, her well-being is the most important thing.

I'm glad to see I'm already on-track a bit, since I'd decided to do More Water Replacing, More Often before reading your post - I've switched to replacing "all the water I can easily scoop" every day, for now. Analogue thermo/hygro meters go for about $20 here, so that shouldn't be a problem. A lamp might take a little longer for now... This is the first time I've heard of a "foam filter", so I'll go and look that up.

That care sheet was interesting; a few parts of it contradicted a few other sheets I've read (including ones by local herpetologists), so that's a bit confusing... One of the most notable is that every other thing I've seen/read indicates the bells seldom climb higher than 15-20cm/6-8" from the ground, while the sheet suggests 3-4 feet. I've dealt with bells in outdoor ponds before, and never seen them that high! I think this calls for Scientific Observation... heh.

Thanks again for your help.

[Lija]

I've read very recently about it, the was a study done about UVB and frogs, temps were mentioned too, can't recall details now, I was looking more for UVB effect in captivity. anyhow i do remember these frogs change color depending on a mood and tank temps, the color gets dull when it is stressed out and a frog turns very dark brown if a tank is too cold, that would be your case i'm assuming. UVB is a must, real unfiltered UVB and suspended above tank basking lamp. i remember reading and thinking that these would very cool to keep, big and aggressive, pacman and pixie mix that is active during a day lol

[EmJay]

I've recently read that in the wild, during winter Green & Golden Bell frogs can turn so dark bronze they're almost black... So I guess making her warmer with a lamp is unnatural, but kinder and safer since she's in captivity and the conditions of the tank can't automatically mimic the natural (almost-) equilibrium of nature. I'd just always been told previously that Litoria didn't need lights or heaters in NZ, and all my prior experience with them has been in outdoor ponds, so I hadn't considered getting a lamp until now.

[Mentat]

...I'm glad to see I'm already on-track a bit, since I'd decided to do More Water Replacing, More Often before reading your post - I've switched to replacing "all the water I can easily scoop" every day, for now. Analogue thermo/hygro meters go for about $20 here, so that shouldn't be a problem. A lamp might take a little longer for now... This is the first time I've heard of a "foam filter", so I'll go and look that up....

Wow an analog thermometer for $20? Can you order from Amazon (they have digital combos for $15 http://www.amazon.com/Terra-Digital-Combination-Thermometer-Hygrometer?

The foam filter is a compact internal water filter powered by an aquarium air pump. They come in many sizes and for your set-up a small flat one (like no. 1 on link) will work nice. A "kitchen baster" or a small "Gravel Vac" could help with water changes. Vacs with a squeeze bulb start are better because they prevent you from getting a mouthful of dirty water .

[EmJay]

Wow an analog thermometer for $20? Can you order from Amazon (they have digital combos for $15 http://www.amazon.com/Terra-Digital-Combination-Thermometer-Hygrometer?

Everything is more expensive here. Probably because it has to be shipped half-way around the world first... Fluker's digital thermo/hygro is around NZ$70. ReptileOne is $45, and the Trixie one is $32, but I'm not familiar with that brand. Most of the time, whatever I save by buying on Amazon, I lose in postage, so I'll have to keep my eyes open for a free-post sale or something.

The foam filter is a compact internal water filter powered by an aquarium air pump. They come in many sizes and for your set-up a small flat one (like no. 1 on link) will work nice.

Okay, I'll look into that, thanks.

A "kitchen baster" or a small "Gravel Vac" could help with water changes. Vacs with a squeeze bulb start are better because they prevent you from getting a mouthful of dirty water .

Ha, now - kitchen baster I can do. :-D I'll grab one today or tomorrow (don't know why I didn't think of that, duh!). Hopefully a gravel vac (they seem to start at $30) will fit into the budget at some point.

Thank you again for all your help!

[EmJay]

Well, she's still more olive-and-bronze than green-and-gold, but she's moving, hiding out in her cave during the day and sitting in her fern when I get up in the morning, so I guess the dramatic colour change was mostly temperature. She's pooped once, but still not eating much (I'll need to investigate thoroughly when I change her water today, and see if her vitamin-flies drowned or got eaten (or escaped, sigh. Tiniest houseflies I ever bought.). Fingers crossed for a cheap new-to-me terrarium soon!

(Also, kitchen baster. ALL THE AWESOME. *So* much quicker, easier, and more effective than scooping. Thank you very much, Carlos!)

[EmJay]

Yay, got a terrarium! Only an Exo Terra mini/tall, but that's better than what we have now (and designed for use with a light!), and at NZ$42.50 wayyy cheaper than the $130 it would have been new. Now Froggley can be more comfortable, and I can look for a bigger, better terr at my leisure.

Now to try and get my brain around planting and substrate and UVB and so on...