Red Eyed Tree Frog Leg Problems

[boa10jeh]

Hi everyone,
I have a problem with my red eyed tree frogs and their legs. I got 2 individuals (a male and female) last January (so 18 months ago) and had no problems with them up until the summer (maybe around July time) when I noticed that the male's right leg seemed somewhat bent. It was the bone closest to the body (maybe the femur?) and it seemed quite bent with the two halves being very independently mobile within his skin, but he was still able to use it, and happily jumped and landed with it, and he showed no other symptoms or loss of appetite. When he is asleep during the day, he doesnt hold the leg quite as tucked in to his body as the other, but does seem to have very good use of it overall. I did take him to see a vet, who diagnosed it as a broken bone, and said there wasn't much I could do, but that amphibians are generally very good healers, so just to monitor him, and maybe feed him from tongs if he was unable to hunt himself. I never had to do this, as like i said he was hunting as normal, and displaying all the normal behaviours. He has even made amplexus with my female since this time!
In October, I got another 2 individuals, both a fair bit younger, so I kept them separate for about 6 months, partly for quarantine, and partly as they were probably small enough to be eaten by my big female. They have been all together as a group of 4 for about 2 months now. However, today, I just had a good look at one of these younger frogs, and his leg appears to be in exactly the same condition as the first males! Again, he is hunting as normal, making and landing jumps as normal, and shows no lethargy or loss of appetite.
Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I am wondering if it is something other than a broken leg, seeing as it has happened to 2 of my frogs now, or if there is something I am doing wrong that is making their bones more brittle?
Just a bit of background, they are all housed in an exo terra terrarium 60x45x60 which is heavily planted with live plants and is sprayed with tap water treated with conditioner daily. There is a water area of treated water available at all times. Temperature is kept in the low 70s in the day, with a drop to the high 60s at night. They are all fed on size 3 crickets which are dusted with calcium and D3 every other day, and a multivitamin supplement once a week. They are all good feeders and are a good size. Both the males whos legs I am worried about call on a regular basis, and form amplexus when put in a rain chamber. There is no discolouration to the legs or any other part of the body on any of the frogs.
Any advice or ideas on what might be causing this and how to rectify it would be really appreciated!
Thanks

[Heatheranne]

Other than your temps being too low, it seems everything else is in order. I would recommend getting your day time temp up to 78'F and your night time temp 75-76'F.

Is your calcium supplement still good? You can try switching brands? What do you currently use? Have you noticed any other odd movements such as twitching? Do you use fertilizer in your plants?

[Mentat]

Sorry about your frogs; please answer these questions that will assist others identify any problem areas. Thank you !

1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog
16. How long have you owned him/her
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
19. How often the frog is handled
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.

[boa10jeh]

Firstly, thanks to both of you for getting in touch so quickly! Heather, I was previously using a ceramic heater on a thermostat clamped about 8 inches from the top of the terrarium to keep the temperatures very similar to your recommendations, but I was told by my local exotics store this was too high, and that too low is worse than too high? Can you give me any more information on the temperatures, and reasons behind your recommendations? All the care sheet available on the internet say different things!
As for the supplements, I use the exo terra calcium with D3 and the exo terra multivitamin, and have just checked the dates on them, and both don't expire until 2014. I haven't tried switching brands no, do you think this might help? I keep other frogs (in separate terrariums) which are also dusted with these supplements and have had no problems of this kind with any of them. There have been no strange movements at all, other than slightly more mobility in the bone I am worried about, but like I said, everything else seems very normal. All the plants I sourced from a provider who (claims) not to use any fertilisers and advocates that all their plants are suitable for use with amphibians. Nonetheless, before putting them in with my frogs, I removed all the soil that they came in, and thoroughly rinsed the roots and leaves before replanting them in my terrarium. Besides, all the plants that are in there currently have been in there for many months.
Hope this answers your questions!
Carlos, I'll answer yours in a separate post in a moment, so that there isn't confusion!
Thanks again!

[boa10jeh]

Carlos,
In answer to your questions:
1. the enclosure is 60x45x60cm.
2. inhabitants - 4 red eyed tree frogs (one large female, about 2.5/3 inches, 2 males, both about 1.5 inches, and one unknown, probably male, also about 1.5 inches).
3. humidity - usually around 60%.
4. temp - low 70s in daytime, high 60s at night (may be changing this with Heathers advice, above).
5. water - tap water treated with exo terra water conditioner sprayed daily, water area full of the same available at all times.
6. substrate - eco earth (made up with treated water)
7. enclosure is heavily planted, with false bottom and exposed water area (changed every other day) plants are live, and mostly broad leaf. There is a branch in the middle (sturdy and secure, cannot fall or shift). cork bark background. All plants were from a provider who claimed not to use fertilisers such that plants were amphibian safe. Nonetheless, all plants were removed from pots, all soil was washed away from the roots, and leaves were thoroughly rinsed prior to planting in the enclosure.
8. food source - live size 3 or 4 crickets, gut loaded with apple, bran, carrot or potato prior to feeding.
9. supplements - calcium with D3 every other day, multivitamin once a week.
10. lighting - 25 watt sun glo in exo terra compact top, and a 5% uv.
11. temperature maintenance - currently just the sun glo bulb, and weather :P but during winter, I use a ceramic heater attached to a thermostat clamped so it is about 8 inches above the top of the terrarium (to prevent burns).
12. both those I am worried about eat every night, have a good appetite and I haven't observed any change in overall condition.
13. i have not seen a reduction in the amount of poop, but equally do not know from which individuals it is coming specifically.
14. i will post some pictures when they are in a good position to demonstrate the problem (don't want to handle them in case it does more harm than good).
15. the older worry frog was a juvenile when i got him in January 2012, and I was told the younger had been out of the water for about 4 weeks when I got him in October.
16. in above question.
17. all my frogs are captive bred.
18. fed daily (unless there is food leftover from previous night) food is available every night. fed solely crickets.
19. all 4 red eyes are only handled when it is necessary to move them (eg. when cleaning enclosures) no individual is handled more than once a fortnight.
20. enclosure kept in a bedroom, so only used by one person, who is rarely there anyway.
21. enclosure is spot cleaned whenever poo or other mess (eg dead crickets) are spotted. full clean out is given every month-6 weeks (remember plants take out a lot of the chemical waste). Cleaned with hot water, no chemicals. Enclosure was brand new, so rinsed before use. water is changed every other day.
Hope this helps!

[Mentat]

... I am wondering if it is something other than a broken leg, seeing as it has happened to 2 of my frogs now, or if there is something I am doing wrong that is making their bones more brittle?...

OK, lets make a presumption and accept that your male frogs have brittle bones as you state. If so, the CA input in those frogs is not covering the needs of its muscle and nerves. That forces the frog systems to draw CA from the bones, which makes them brittle. Understand you are using a known product within expiration date; but our presumption indicates there is possibility something might be wrong with it; since it's not providing for an adequate CA input in your male frogs.

My recommendation would be to replace that product with another one. I use Repashy but also heard good things about ReptoCal. If more male (or females) develop fractures after changing CA source; then something else is causing this issue.

IRT temps I understand different care sheets say different things... but myself would do as Heather says. Good luck !

[Heatheranne]

Hi Boa,

I too was misguided with other Internet caresheets before I learned the proper temps and humidity. Of course there is a safe range, but I always shoot for ideal with a slight variance.

Perfect day time temps should be 78'F, but can vary 76-80'F, but no higher. Their metabolism starts to slow along with proper digestion at temps lower. Night time can be a few degrees less. I set mine at 78'F day and 76'F night. Just enough to trigger a proper day night schedule along with their lighting. A UTH heat pad on one tank side can help. I actually set the electric heater for their room at those temps. It fluctuates a degree in each direction while regulating itself to the thermostat. Works great though.

Being I have 10 frogs in 6 tanks to regulate, it's so much easier. I also have a day gecko and pacman frogs in the room. The pacs need temps of 80'F so they each have their own side wall UTH pads too. The tanks also hold humidity better than they did with the red bulbs.

Humidity...the best humidity for them is 70-80%. Lower can cause dehydration, electrolyte imbalances, and difficulty with shedding. Higher can cause respiratory infections. Lower humidity may cause high electrolyte levels due to the less amount of water per electrolyte causing a higher overall concentration.
Getting your temps up at the proper humidity level and providing good supplements will help them to properly regulate themselves and their electrolytes and fluid balances. You can mist more often or get a fogger or automatic mister.

I asked about fertilizers bc they often have amounts of phosphorus too high for frogs, which inversely can alter the amount of calcium the frog can absorb. Calcium and phosphorus have inverse absorption properties. Odd since they are both needed for bones, but true. Small amts of phosphorus in mvi's are at proper doses. The amounts in fertilizers are way too high and will lessen the ability to absorb calcium. of course vitamin D3 is also needed for proper calcium absorption, but you've got that one down .

It sounds as though everything else is just right .

As Mentat has mentioned also, try giving your calcium with vita D3 a brand switch. Repashy is great, Repcal is good too. Flukers is okay but I found that my frogs ate less when I used it...taste? Herptivite is a good vitamin. Repashy has both vitamins and calcium in it. I think the Exo terra is suppose to be good also.

At first I was thinking perhaps injury vs. bone disease due to lack of calcium. Being a second has popped up with a similar issue, I'm now thinking it may be the supplement.

Also, do you dust right before feeding time? This could also be a thought...crickets are good at cleaning themselves. Who would have thought, being their stinkiness, lol! If dusted early they may remove a good portion of the supplement from themselves. If you don't already, try dusting right before dinner . You could try feeding from a glass bowl. The frogs will learn where dinner is served and you will know how many were eaten. You can also observe their eating habits.

Hope this helps .

[flybyferns]

H Boa,

Carlos and Heather's have taken good care of you ( of course)
If you get a chance, perhaps post a photo of the legs you are describing.

<As for the supplements, I use the exo terra calcium with D3 and the exo terra multivitamin, and have just checked the dates on them, and both don't expire until 2014. . >
If not mentioned cal/vit D3 and vits should be replaced every 3 months regardless of exp date.
So, if the supplements are on the older side - replacing them is quite important.
I alternate repcal ( cal/vit D and vitamins) and repashy

links for you if you want to read additional information regarding both products:
Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center
Foods Line

If you are suspicious the legs on these 2 frogs are compromised- I would me mindful of keeping their environment as safe as possible, and reduce any chance of startling them which could lead to an uncontrolled leap resulting in an injury. Just a thought

I believe that Heath's suggestion regarding bowl feed is an excellent idea:
1) you will be able to monitor food
2)tends to keep the crickets dusted little longer
3) It will prevent the frog from jumping onto or at something ( red eyes are not the sharpest tools in the shed ! )

Heath must have gotten up a the crack of dawn today here in EST zone !
Keep us posted Boa - everyone have a great day and night !

[Mentat]

...links for you if you want to read additional information regarding both products:
Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center...

I'm using separate CA and vitamin products from Repashy; but when it's time to replace bottles, will try this newer formula all in one product: Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL SALES :: By Product Name :: Calcium Plus :: Calcium Plus 4 oz BAG - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center .

[Heatheranne]

Wow, guys sorry for the typos (I corrected them). I was a bit sleepy when I wrote . I was a little "wordy" too. Hope it was easy to follow.

Pictures of your frogs and their set-up would be very helpful.