B. Dubia Theory 2 month results

[JeffreH]

@Demon A - did I ever send these to you? Additional evidence that carbohydrates are what cockroaches thrive on, and that their amino acid needs can be primarily derived from plant matter. There is some evidence that excessive protein in the diet can result in larger-sized adult individuals; but the effect on reproductive fitness suggests that high-protein diets are worthless and often harmful in the long-term due to ketone production and uric acid buildup.

1) Hamilton, Robert L. and Cody, Schal (1988). Effects of Dietary Protein Levels on Reproduction and Food Consumption in the German Cockroach (Dictyoptera: Blattellidae). Annals of the of the Entomological Society of America. Vol 81, p. 969-976(8).

Abstract:
The effects of four diets (commercial rat food, 5, 25, and 65% protein) on reproduction and daily food consumption of male and female German cockroaches were investigated. Females compensate for low dietary protein levels by elevating consumption rates and reproduce normally. Conversely, a high-protein diet significantly delayed mating in females and resulted in smaller oöthecae. Percentage hatch of oöthecae and male sexual maturation were unaffected by dietary protein content. Males that were allowed to copulate twice a week, ate more, and died sooner than males allowed to mate only once. The role of diet composition in regulating feeding behavior is discussed.

-Also, a 2011 study using lobster roaches (N. cinerea)

2) South, Sandra H., House, Clarissa M., Moore, Allen J., Simpson, Stephen J., Hunt, John (June 2011). MALE COCKROACHES PREFER A HIGH CARBOHYDRATE DIET THAT MAKES THEM MORE ATTRACTIVE TO FEMALES: IMPLICATIONS FOR THE STUDY CONDITION DEPENDENCE. Evolution: Vol 65, p. 1594-1608 (6).

Abstract

Sexual selection is a major force driving the evolution of elaborate male sexual traits. Handicap models of sexual selection predict that male sexual traits should covary positively with condition, making them reliable indicators of male quality. However, most studies have either manipulated condition through varying diet quantity and/or caloric content without knowledge of specific nutrient effects or have correlated proxies of condition with sexual trait expression. We used nutritional geometry to quantify protein and carbohydrate intake by male cockroaches, Nauphoeta cinerea, and related this to sex pheromone expression, attractiveness, and dominance status. We found that carbohydrate, but not protein, intake is related to male sex pheromone expression and attractiveness but not dominance status. Additionally, we related two condition proxies (weight gain and lipid reserves) to protein and carbohydrate acquisition. Weight gain increased with the intake of both nutrients, whereas lipid reserves only increased with carbohydrate intake. Importantly, lipid accumulation was not as responsive to carbohydrate intake as attractiveness and thus was a less-accurate condition proxy. Moreover, males preferentially consumed high carbohydrate diets with little regard for protein content suggesting that they actively increase their carbohydrate intake thereby maximizing their reproductive fitness by being attractive.



-I've highlighted key points inRED. I can try to get access to the full-text publication through OhioLink if you'd like it and I can try to email them to you. Good stuff that your results are consistent DA! As the evidence piles up, we can make more pushes to proper roach husbandry that will offer the best colony growth and reproductive success. = )

[Psychotic]

I keep my roaches in the extra slots in my snake rack. There is a temperature gradient. The hot spot is 85°f. I always read to feed my Dubai protein. But I rarely did. They always seemed fine on veggies and fruit. My colony is small. But I always have babies. Glad I'm not the only one who does it. Also my adults that I originally bought last September are still alive. I've yet to find dead roaches. How long is their average lifespan?

[demon amphibians]

You're not kidding, lol! So many new nymphs every day. Hence the turning down of the bulb or turning off sometimes. I will likely sell some this summer.

I moved mine to a 20gal long. I feed at one end and keep a 75watt red heat bulb at other. I actually mist the very top of the tank every 3 days or so. They molt faster . Then I pick out the freshly molted ones for my frogs. I feed mine carrots, oranges, apples, bananas, romaine lettuce, water gel, and Cheerios. A few other things sometimes.

When will your next study be? Do you sell yours at the reptile shows?

Sorry i forgot to answer your second question Heather. I do have a show i am selling at. well selling to someone who is going to sell at a show. But since the arrangement, i have gone into a partnership with this person and soon i will be selling a large array of feeders, dubia right now is my nest egg and very soon I will be selling at an excellent price online. i hope to have 4 or 5 roach options along with crickets and super worms (two species that i preach against but the demand is high and for some animals they are top choice). I have also started raising a few breeding tarantulas. And would like to breed a few species of mantis as well. I am also thinking about breeding fire belly toads. I would love to breed american bullfrogs and cane toads, however in the state i currently live in i can have them and breed them all i want but they are illegal to sell. Along with breeding multiple species of roaches i wish to learn and provide the best guides you can find on breeding these feeders.(with Jeff's help of course) And FF is going to be the first place to find this information. I first came across the ground breaking find on the protein theory thanks to Jeff. And his info is what lead the the study that quadrupled my reproduction. I am sure we can put our brains together and do similar research on other species. Lobster roaches and Hissers are my next mission. But not only to raise and sell but to improve the quality of food we provide for our loving frogs.

[demon amphibians]

I keep my roaches in the extra slots in my snake rack. There is a temperature gradient. The hot spot is 85°f. I always read to feed my Dubai protein. But I rarely did. They always seemed fine on veggies and fruit. My colony is small. But I always have babies. Glad I'm not the only one who does it. Also my adults that I originally bought last September are still alive. I've yet to find dead roaches. How long is their average lifespan?

way to use your resources. 85F is an excellent temp. and the humidity in the environment would also prove to be excellent, its something you wouldn't even have to monitor.. You know every care sheet from large breeders do recommend feeding protein, in fact I raised a colony from 1,000 to 40,000 on protein however when i started the protein free diet my reproduction went through the roof. If things keep going they way they are instead of 10,000 to 15,000 babies a breeding cycle i am looking at 40,000-50,000 a breeding cycle. This will make a world of difference for someone with a small or large colony.
once adult your males will live for around 9 months, females will live around 18 to 24 months. since i made the change all the deaths in my breeder bin are from old age. before i had random deaths of females that had just molted into adults. The highest protein content that i personally believe should be offered are found in grains. not only do your roaches breed better but your frogs will be much healthier. And that is the ultimate goal with roaches in the first place.

[demon amphibians]

@Demon A - did I ever send these to you? Additional evidence that carbohydrates are what cockroaches thrive on, and that their amino acid needs can be primarily derived from plant matter. There is some evidence that excessive protein in the diet can result in larger-sized adult individuals; but the effect on reproductive fitness suggests that high-protein diets are worthless and often harmful in the long-term due to ketone production and uric acid buildup.

1) Hamilton, Robert L. and Cody, Schal (1988). Effects of Dietary Protein Levels on Reproduction and Food Consumption in the German Cockroach (Dictyoptera: Blattellidae). Annals of the of the Entomological Society of America. Vol 81, p. 969-976(8).

Abstract:
The effects of four diets (commercial rat food, 5, 25, and 65% protein) on reproduction and daily food consumption of male and female German cockroaches were investigated. Females compensate for low dietary protein levels by elevating consumption rates and reproduce normally. Conversely, a high-protein diet significantly delayed mating in females and resulted in smaller oöthecae. Percentage hatch of oöthecae and male sexual maturation were unaffected by dietary protein content. Males that were allowed to copulate twice a week, ate more, and died sooner than males allowed to mate only once. The role of diet composition in regulating feeding behavior is discussed.

-Also, a 2011 study using lobster roaches (N. cinerea)

2) South, Sandra H., House, Clarissa M., Moore, Allen J., Simpson, Stephen J., Hunt, John (June 2011). MALE COCKROACHES PREFER A HIGH CARBOHYDRATE DIET THAT MAKES THEM MORE ATTRACTIVE TO FEMALES: IMPLICATIONS FOR THE STUDY CONDITION DEPENDENCE. Evolution: Vol 65, p. 1594-1608 (6).

Abstract

Sexual selection is a major force driving the evolution of elaborate male sexual traits. Handicap models of sexual selection predict that male sexual traits should covary positively with condition, making them reliable indicators of male quality. However, most studies have either manipulated condition through varying diet quantity and/or caloric content without knowledge of specific nutrient effects or have correlated proxies of condition with sexual trait expression. We used nutritional geometry to quantify protein and carbohydrate intake by male cockroaches, Nauphoeta cinerea, and related this to sex pheromone expression, attractiveness, and dominance status. We found that carbohydrate, but not protein, intake is related to male sex pheromone expression and attractiveness but not dominance status. Additionally, we related two condition proxies (weight gain and lipid reserves) to protein and carbohydrate acquisition. Weight gain increased with the intake of both nutrients, whereas lipid reserves only increased with carbohydrate intake. Importantly, lipid accumulation was not as responsive to carbohydrate intake as attractiveness and thus was a less-accurate condition proxy. Moreover, males preferentially consumed high carbohydrate diets with little regard for protein content suggesting that they actively increase their carbohydrate intake thereby maximizing their reproductive fitness by being attractive.



-I've highlighted key points inRED. I can try to get access to the full-text publication through OhioLink if you'd like it and I can try to email them to you. Good stuff that your results are consistent DA! As the evidence piles up, we can make more pushes to proper roach husbandry that will offer the best colony growth and reproductive success. = )

you sent me something similar but not this exact explanation. does this sort of explain why roaches go crazy over bread products? Good info Jeff! Now i know that this very much applies to dubia but do you believe species such as hissers and lobster are similar? from my experience with hissers i can see the diet as of dubia being the exact same. lobsters i am still trying to figure out what works for them. I have only had the lobsters about a week. I have also read that orange heads and blatta lateralis require a much larger amount of protein than dubia, but we all now know that dubia dont require protein do you believe that this could also be false info?

[Louis Charles Bruckner]

I have had a small brain storm, paper egg crate is kinda hard to come by
What do you think about using inexpensive HVAC filters like this one.
But smaller.
You can get them in just about an size and they can be cut or folded in half.

[demon amphibians]

they may work. remember roaches love hiding places. those give surface space but not hiding places as egg crates do. i personally would use them to line the bottom of the bin. I will tell you what though it would work the best for new borns. maybe better than egg crates. it has sufficient hiding places for babies, maybe not so much for adults. use them let me know how they work out. if you cant get egg crates i would certainly use them.

[JeffreH]

Now i know that this very much applies to dubia but do you believe species such as hissers and lobster are similar? from my experience with hissers i can see the diet as of dubia being the exact same. lobsters i am still trying to figure out what works for them. I have only had the lobsters about a week.

They're nutritional needs are probably almost the same... both are generalist decomposers by nature. I'm also pretty convinced that roaches can be somewhat selective in what they eat... if you other a mixed variety of food items they will nibble on the items they prefer or need and will nitpick their feed. But roaches also eat and thrive on just about anything ; ) Bread/grain products are probably relished for their carbohydrate and amino acid content, while fruits and veggies are relished for carbohydrates, moisture, and various nutrients like carotenoids.

I have also read that orange heads and blatta lateralis require a much larger amount of protein than dubia, but we all now know that dubia dont require protein do you believe that this could also be false info?

Definitely - I think its the moisture they are interested in. Kyle Kandilian at RoachCrossing introduced me to the idea that moisture in the roach diet is more important than the high protein beliefs. When I increase the available water crystals or salad product in the Orange Head bins, I notice significantly less cannibalism/wing-biting behavior. The orange heads will definitely take to eating animal tissue more readily than other roaches I've kept though... they'll consume other insects that are kept with them and will apparently strip a rat carcass. But I don't think extra protein is required in the diet.

[demon amphibians]

well Jeff when i acquire these species i guess i will have some work to do then wont I, lol? I will give you all the details as i go. one thing is for sure roaches are some of the most successful creatures on the planet and i think that their diverse diet is one of the main reasons this is such. Just as there is almost equal evidence that humans originated as herbivores and adapted to eat other animals to insure the continuity of the species. (This occurred due to an ice age, if anyone would like further info on that matter please PM me). I think roaches will eat animal protein if required. Evolution is not so simple it seems. But in time we can attempt to sort out the correct answers. I still want to know the answer behind why oranges encourage better breading.

[Louis Charles Bruckner]

Well I just put a pice of water mellon and musk mellon (cantaloupe) and the little buggers wont touch it.
I have them in a closet with no light and temps 80F

[demon amphibians]

Well I just put a pice of water mellon and musk mellon (cantaloupe) and the little buggers wont touch it.
I have them in a closet with no light and temps 80F

They can be very picky at times. and it seems to be different between colonies. My adult breeders do not like carrots they will hardly touch them unless they are the only things in there with them. But my babie roaches will devour them regardless of the other food items i have in with them. the babies also arent crazy about oats when the larger sized roaches love it. Really its a hit or miss with these guys. Many people swear by potatoe peels. I cant get my roaches to touch them at all. Just like i have had luck with melon. And you say they wont touch it. I have not idea what prompts this behavior. But a side note you may have better luck with a wider varity of foods if your temps are slightly above 90F. 80 is an ok temp for them but they seem to be more active between 90-100F.