Been away for a while, back with a troubling situation...

[HerpDerp]

I've been away from the forum for a while! Busy busy life recently! But I desperately need some advice or insight! Glurmo hasn't eaten for nearly a week . I've been diligently trying to get him to eat every single night for the past four nights. I feed him in his own container inside the tank so that Lrrr doesn't gobble up all his food. I've tried tong feeding him, feeding him from the container and tonight, force feeding. He would have none of the force feeding. He still has plenty of energy. He pushed away the crickets with his front legs.He doesn't look bloated, but he does look like he's lost a little bit of weight. He's been shedding every single night too. I wish I could say whether he's been lethargic or not, but he's never been anything but lethargic since I've had him. He's just not an active frog. Lrrr is very active and jumps all over the place and is eating like CRAZY. I haven't quarantined Glurmo yet, but I'm thinking that I'm going to have to. I'm not entirely sure when the last time he pooped was, but I don't think he's impacted. There really has been no change to anything in the tank in a very long time so this just doesn't make sense. The only thing that might be bothering him is the humidity. It can get rather low during the day (30%) but I keep up with the misting when I'm home and keep it around 60%. It's been like that all winter though. And like I said, Lrrr has been fine. Maybe Glurmo just isn't strong enough to withstand it compared to Lrrr? I really don't know... I'm just so upset that he hasn't eaten! Help!

[Heatheranne]

Happy to see you back. I'm sorry your baby's not eating.

It might be the humidity drop, though odd it hasn't bothered him sooner. Have you noticed anything else with him? How's his skin? Other behaviors are normal?

[HerpDerp]

His skin is completely normal, other than nightly shedding. He doesn't move very much. Mostly from the water dish to the plant next to the water dish and back, but that's not really THAT unusual. He's never been quite right since I've had him. Always more lethargic. But he was also at the petco for 6 months or better before I got him. I think his growth was stunted because Lrrr is already bigger than him and at least half his age. I can't even begin to say how worried I am about him. Before I got WTFs I had a pacman frog that just stopped eating like this and eventually died. I don't want to watch poor Glurmo decline like that... He doesn't even turn his head to look at food. It's like he has 0 interest in it.

[Heatheranne]

Hmmm. Can you answer these questions? It might help us to figure out why.



“Trouble in the Frog Enclosure”

The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.



1. Size of enclosure

2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences

3. Humidity

4. Temperature

5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish

6. Materials used for substrate

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.

- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.

8. Main food source

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)

10. Lighting

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure

12. When is the last time he/she ate

13. Have you found poop lately

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)

15. How old is the frog

16. How long have you owned him/her

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats

19. How often the frog is handled

20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area

21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)



(by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat)

[HerpDerp]

1. Size of enclosure
-Exo-Terra 18x18x24

2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
-2 WTFs, both about 2.5 inches

3. Humidity
Try to keep it around 60 but it does drop sometimes as low as 30% during the day. But as I said, it's been like that all winter.

4. Temperature
-Temp is between 75 and 80 during the day and 70-75 at night

5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
- Soaking and misting water are both treated tap water.

6. Materials used for substrate
- Eco earth substrate

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
-Mostly live plants. Pothos, broms, dracaena, rope hoya. And some fake plants that stick to the back.

- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
- Plants were all rinsed thoroughly, roots included. They've been in there for a few months now.
8. Main food source
- Just crickets for now, roaches soon (once my colony is sustainable)

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
- Multi vite once a week and calcium 2 or 3 times a week.

10. Lighting
- Plant bulb and a regular bulb.

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
- CHE on a dimmer.

12. When is the last time he/she ate
- It's been somewhere around a week since he's eaten, give or take a day.

13. Have you found poop lately
- I found one poop inside the brom he sleeps on. But that was right when he first stopped eating.

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
- I have a bunch of pics in my albums I believe, my enclosure hasn't changed at all in about three months.

15. How old is the frog
- I've had him for about 8 or 9 months maybe? And he was about the same size he is now. I would guess he was just under a year?

16. How long have you owned him/her
- guess I just answered that ^

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
-Got him at petco so I'm guessing captive bred.

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
I feed every other night.

19. How often the frog is handled
Only to put him in and take him out of his feeding container. Extremely briefly.

20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
Very low traffic

21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)
Water changed every day, false bottom so I just spot clean as needed.

[Heatheranne]

Everything is perfect except that humidity drop. Though odd that it hasn't bothered him until now if that's why.

The poo that you found a bit ago, did it look normal?

Do the frogs get along well?

Any possible new stressors in the area? Noise? Changes around them that you can think of?

[Heatheranne]

Can you give him a pedialyte bath? It will at least give him some electrolytes.

It's one part pedialyte to 10 parts treated lukewarm water for about 15 minutes.

[HerpDerp]

I can't think of anything at all that has been different. Him and Lrrr don't really acknowledge each other. Occasionally Lrrr will crowd Glurmo a bit but he doesn't even look like he notices. His general disposition has always been like that. Literally nothing has changed. Traffic is the same, light cycle is the same. The only thing I can think of at all is that I got a new kitten about three weeks ago. But she doesn't even seem to notice the frogs at all. The poop I found looked normal as well. This is just very strange to me. If I recall, for the week before he stopped eating he was only eating one cricket when I fed him. I usually feed two medium/large crickets.

I don't have pedialyte on hand, but I have given him warm honey soaks a couple nights this week. Just a few minutes ago I noticed him tensing up like he would if he was shedding. But he already shed tonight? I'm starting to think it's some underlying health condition from being in the pet store for so long. Lrrr really is acting completely fine. He calls every night when I go to bed. And since he stopped eating, Glurmo hasn't been calling with Lrrr either...

[Heatheranne]

I'm thinking he may need some calcium. Since he is not eating, he is missing out on supplements.

[HerpDerp]

I'm going to get some pedialyte tonight after work. How can I get some calcium in him if he's not eating? can I put some of his powder in the water? Or does pedialyte have calcium in it? The repti safe I use has added calcium, but I suspect that doesn't really do much? Should I quarantine him or will that give him unnecessary stress? I honestly don't think it's anything contagious, but it may be easier to monitor? I don't know . I'm sure I'm rambling a bit, but it's just so stressful to have this happen when I thought I was doing everything right.

[Pibblet]

Hi Michelle,

I'm so sorry that you and the little ones have to deal with this. I wanted to put it out there, perhaps this will help you.

I worked at Petco doing animal care for a little over a year. My store had White's for sale, and the little guys always died after several months. The enclosure they were kept in was all wrong, and the breeders were just god awful. They looked healthy initially, but over the course of weeks and months, they would lose appetite, and wither away. Despite bringing this up to management, and the district higher ups, nothing was done about it, because they obviously knew much more than some associate. :/

White's tree frogs at Petco are notorious for coming from mass breeders, often with the little guys riddled with bacteria they succumb to over time. The store would not let me take these frogs or put them aside for recovery, and they were not worth the company's money in terms of cultures, etc. at a reptile vet, and they didn't care whether these frogs lived or died. Just scanned 'em out when they died and reordered more when they were gone.

Long story short, I scanned out four remaining frogs as dead and snuck them out of the store with an associate manager approval. Thanks to Dr. Frye and a good round of anti-biotics and treatment, I now have two, fat little plumper White's who pulled through, and who are as green and happy as can be. I'm not diagnosing them, but there's a good chance that he may need anti-biotics. So many White's are kept together and often, employees don't keep up with the waste and bacteria they accumulate.

Orestes, the smaller white's of the two, had the same symptoms of shedding constantly and loss of appetite with extreme lethargy. It was a month long ordeal, but he made it and now he has some really weird habits to show for it, haha.

I apologize for the long ramble, but your story brought it all back and needless to say I quit and refuse to shop there. Best of luck to you and the little guys, I hope they make a full and swift recovery.

[HerpDerp]

This really makes total sense. Glurmo was at the petco for a very long time and his tank mate had already died. Lrrr was just a baby when I got him and he's doing worlds better than Glurmo ever did. How much did those antibiotics cost you and what were they? And what was the exact problem with these frogs? I don't know why I didn't think of contacting Dr. Frye. It sounds like I may have to put off reconstructing their vivarium until after Glurmo is better! I really hope he gets better . I was also thinking of buying another frog from the reptile expo this coming weekend, but now I'm thinking I should wait .

[Pibblet]

I hope so too! Orestes hadn't eaten for over a month, so you can imagine I was a bit desperate. He was mostly bones, all brown, and sat in his water bowl all the time. I honestly thought he wasn't going to make it. After a good round of treatment, he actually started climbing and trying to go after food. He was a bit weak and clumsy, mind you, and after this whole ordeal, he's a spoiled brat who is tong fed and goes out of his way to perch on my finger like a bird. Sending good vibes for Glurmy and hope he makes a swift recovery!

http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

If you don't have a reptile vet in your area (or a knowledgeable one in my case), Dr. Frye is your best bet. He and his staff are amazing, and the medicine he prescribed them was affordable.

[HerpDerp]

I just emailed Dr. Frye. I'm really hopeful that he'll have a solution. After watching my pacman frog whither away to nothing and die, I refuse to see that happen again. It's a good thing that frogs are so rewarding because man, they can be a pain in the butt!

[Heatheranne]

Pibblet, this is an aspiring post! Thank you!

The only thing I have to add at this time is calcium comes in a liquid supplement also. It is not absorbed as much as through the GI system, but it can help and at least prevent tetany and MBD. You can do a soak with it. The bottle tells you how many drops to add. I brought home a pac with tetany last year and it stopped the symptoms within a couple days. You will likely only need a maintenance or usual dose as prevention.

Stress often triggers a weak immune system, which allows opportunistic infections to sneak in and/or overgrowth of their own gut flora.

[HerpDerp]

Dr. Frye got back to me very quickly! He suggested a fecal sample and treating with metronidizole and possibly panacur. The problem is that I can't get a fecal for Glurmo since he hasn't pooped in a while and I cleaned it out last time he pooped. And he's not eating so there's nothing to poop out! So I have a couple questions that hopefully can get answered here!
1. Is this a special kind of metronidizole or is it the same thing you could buy for a cat or dog? I'm considering buying some online (if it's cheaper than Dr. Frye's price anyways).
2. Are worms visible to the naked eye in the feces? I've never seen anything that looked at all like worms and I tend to inspect poops when I clean them out to make sure they're normal looking.
3. Where can I find a liquid calcium supplement? Is it something I can get at a pet store?

Thank you guys so much for your help. I'm starting to feel a little less worried about Glurmo!

EDIT: I found metronidizole for fish for like mega cheap... is it the same thing? What sort of dose do I need to use?

[Pibblet]

I'm glad! Dr. Frye's prices are pretty affordable, and I would be very wary of buying it off the internet. Most times you need a prescription (and if you don't, it's more than likely out of the country...) and it's just not safe due to dosages and strength. Dr. Frye will give you the amount that you need along with proper instructions. I paid little over 30 including shipping, which will probably amount to the amount you would pay at an online venue anyway.

It depends on the infestation of worms. Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't.

Exactly what Heatheranne mentioned about the liqui-cal! You can usually find them at pet shops. I know Petco has it, at least.

[Heatheranne]

Yep. You can get the calcium in the reptile/amphibian section of the pet store. I am not at home but can take a photo of the brand I have when I get home.

The metronidazole is a 500mg in 100ml premix IV bag in which you draw it up and do only 2 or 3 drops per weight of the frog. It's not very expensive and much safer than trying to mix with sterile technique, and with sterile solutions. I would also be leery of using others. It is best to have a vet dose the medication and follow along with you. I do not know how the cat and dog preparations are made or at what concentrations. They sometimes add flavors to cat and dog meds to get them to take them. I do not know if they would be safe for amphibians.

Both metro and panacur are great medications and can be given even without a stool sample. Of course, it is best to know what you are treating, but in this case I'd get them started.

Dr.Frye helped me save 5 of my rescues .

The worms can sometimes be seen and some times are too small to visualize without a microscope.

[HerpDerp]

Thank you! If I can't find exactly that online (vet websites) for less then I'll go through him. Is there a way I can dissolve my powdered calcium for tonight until I can get to the pet store tomorrow?

[tinkgirl77]

Hey Michelle, it sounds like youve received some great information here. I will tell you from experience. I worked for a vet for 8 years (still occasionally do when he needs help) and Dr. Frye 's prices are extremely reasonable. He is also a great resource to have handy as well. I purchased the Froggie First aid kit from him right after getting my RETFs and thank goodness because 2 months later, I now have a rescue that I saved with his help! There are so many many wonderful people on here that are all willing to dive in and give you a hand! Best of luck to you and your little Glurmo. Rooting for you both!