dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

[yoshimi]

Maybe losing a pregnant female in the summer might cause a surprise, but it's unlikely since they're big and really easy to catch. Even the little ones. MUCH easier to catch than escaped crickets. Those I used to have to just wait til they showed up in the cat water or as a cat toy. One of mine will play with bugs or just meow at me, like, "ant! ant! look, ant!", while the other eats anything outright. I'll be there with a tissue to get whatever and she's just like, chomp! gulp. And as far as escape, dubia are just so ridiculously bad at climbing anything smooth, it's a non-issue.

People hear "roaches" and they don't think of dubia, or the like. You should see, or already know, how people's eyes widen when I tell them I breed them. Til I explain that they're not like house roaches. Even then, they probably think it's nuts. Meh.

[Mentat]

Maybe losing a pregnant female in the summer might cause a surprise...

If worried about escaped roaches, just leave a wide mouth jar with couple inches of molasses leaned against wall. It will become a contained "tar pit" for bugs !

Good thread DA !

[Laserwolf52]

I know this thread is old but I was wondering if any results popped up? I am considering switching my roaches to a diet that is based off your research.

[demon amphibians]

the research has been conclusive protein is bad news. I just avoid animal products all together. plant diets do have protein but it does not seem to cause the issues that protein from dog food, cat food and fish flakes cause. the big issue is uric acid and slowed breeding. my research was only on dubia but many experts in the matter as well as I believe that it applies to hissers as well. There is a second thread that i made with more detailed results.

[Laserwolf52]

Thank you for the info and for putting in the time to do the study! Is it okay if they have some high protein food like chick starter that doesn't have any animal based protein?

[JeffreH]

Chick starter (non-medicated) is fine as a dry gutload to use in conjunction with produce as a moisture source.

Demon: Do you have data to share? A study is not a study unless someone can replicate exactly what you did... can you give insight on methodology? Numerical data?
Purely observational studies are nice to gain some insight on a system, but without hard data they should not be taken as conclusive.

For the record - I'm only encouraging good science. I think there is adequate information from even peer-reviewed primary literature that excess protein in the diet is bad for cockroaches. Even in a human-associated species, the German Roach, that can presumably handle higher protein loads than tropical species, have ill effects in reproduction and oothecae size when fed excess protein. I think there is a balance that can be found, however. There is a significant difference between plant-based protein and animal-based protein that would be found in things like dog/cat kibble and fish flakes. The plant-based are probably easier to metabolize and offer a different route for obtaining nitrogen than the latter.

*See 1988 study published in Annals of the Entomological Society of America by Hamilton and Coby: Effects of Dietary Protein Levels on Reproduction and Food Consumption in the German Cockroach (Dictyoptera: Blattellidae).

I think its still okay to feed dry gutloads that are grain based to add nitrogen (protein) to the diet, but the diet should be strongly supplemented and heavily weighed toward greens, vegetables, fruits, and other produce items both for moisture and nutrient benefits (to the cockroach and the herps that feed on them). Uric acid buildup should only occur, in my opinion, in roaches who are fed a diet very heavy in animal protein and otherwise offered few other resources (i.e. a diet of only dog food and water crystals). It's worth exploring cases where uric acid problems have arisen and compare them to those (the majority) where it does not. Too often in herpetoculture we hear of a single instance or two (recall trevo worm cases) and we are quick to jump to a conclusion that it holds universally... and this is totally understandable! We all want what is best for our pets and don't want to take any risks whatsoever (consider costs/benefits of feeding wildcaught in some scenarios). I think some balance needs to be found, and further investigation needs to be done to evaluate just how much is too much...

[demon amphibians]

Absolutely Jeff unfortunately i no longer have the precise notes from the study. Ol lady threw them away during spring cleaning. But i remember it like it was yesterday. I first started with the growth experiment. to find out if protein effects growth. i did roughly 20 containers worth of tests with different sized roaches for a month. I believe each contained 10 roaches in each. i fed half the containers a blend of cat food, dog food and fish flakes with carrots lettuce and oranges. it was a wet mash.( i did not do only animal product blends they always had veggies too) the other half i did veggie blend with chicken starter. The growth rate was almost exactly the same but the death count in the animal protein containers were 12 more then the veggie containers. This particular experiment did not have me convinced and really didnt prove anything because many situations can cause death. Meanwhile i was running the experiment on my breeding colonies. I took brand new adults from my growing colony and separated them into two colonies I intended it to take place with 2 different colonies but it later involved my 3rd and largest colony. (I will get to the 3rd colony later) The two test colonies had 1,000 in each give or take 100. I continued to feed my primary colony and test 1 colony the animal protein with the veggies and oranges. While test colony two only got veggies and chicken starter. In one week i noticed a slight difference between the two test colonies but not big differences. the difference was how many roaches i would catch mating each day. test two i would always find a hand full in process of mating. and test one I would rarely find them mating. i would separate babies every two weeks. The first two weeks separation yielded roughly the same. i didnt really notice a drastic change. around the 3rd separation at about 1 1/2 months was where the answers started to come. test colony two's babies nearly doubled test colony one's. And the random deaths in test colony one was at least 4 times higher then in colony two. By the sixth baby separation at month 3. The baby count in test 2 was out numbering both Test 1 and the primary colony which had a few thousand breeding females. the death count in test 2 was a small hand full while death count in test 1 was near 100, and the primary colony was a few hundred. So from there i stopped the experiment and gave all colonies nothing but plant matter for food this includes chicken starter. Two months later the other two colonies increased baby numbers by 4x and the death toll dropped significantly.
I do apologize i do not have all details and exact numbers from my baby separation counts. I should have made a log of it on my threads. But since the experiment i have had to pretty much give roaches away because they would run out of space in my numerous bins. I would sell 10,000 of thousands at reptile shows as well as locally and still it would seem like i didn't get ride of any at all.

Now these roaches can breed and thrive on animal protein they are roaches that is what they do, they multiply. Roaches are said to be the most likely creatures on the earth to survive in the event of disaster. They just thrive better without animal products.

[Ash]

We have multiple bins of Dubia Blaptica Roaches that we produce for our Dubia Starter Kits we quickly found out by starting out bins with equal conditions and number of roaches that those fed a varied diet including Fresh Fruits and Veggies fared better. High protein diets are avoided in nature and this should be replicated in captivity. Understanding that many customers ask for a dry food that need not be replenished every day or so, We do sell a Roach Chow/Food that is High in nutrition and optimal in protein 14-15% We recommend that feedings should be 65-70% (or more) fresh fruits and Veggies and 30% or less supplemental moderate to low protein grain based food if desired.

Excess protein as well as excess supplemented calcium seems to cause molting problems and die offs during molting as well as the documented uric acid buildup in the animals that feed on these insects.

Calcium and protein from Natural Food Sources Fruits and Veggies poses no problems and is optimal and why our roaches are ALL Natural Vegetarian Fed and our Amphibians and Reptiles love them! Just watch overfeeding high oxalic acid containing greens like Rhubarb which should be avoided as it blocks calcium absorption and to a lesser extent of spinach and kale. The key is variety.

In Summary High Protein is better for Dubai Roaches We Raise All Our Dubia Pre-Gutloaded with nutrition from All Natural Foods (Fresh Produce Fruits and Veggies)