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Thread: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

  1. #1
    demon amphibians
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    Default dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    I have been thinking a lot about recent threads concerning the dubia roach diet. There have been large debates on what the best foods are such as chicken mash, oranges, carrots, dog food etc. The debate about protein however has sparked the biggest and most heated discussions.
    Now, some of the points that people have made have got me thinking. So I did some research. I stumbled onto to great piece of information that could impact the roach breeding community, and it wasn’t hard to find. In fact, this stuff is something you can learn in Jr. high school.
    What I researched does not necessarily pertain to the dubia roach in particular but it has many similarities. What I did was take this information and what I already know about them and did the math.
    This information that I am going to provide is just ballpark example so that we can better understand what types of foods that the roaches require for optimal growth and production and what is not necessary thus making our frogs meal times much more convenient, as well as nutritious and affordable.
    Before I post my theory to you all I want your opinions.
    1. Do dubia roaches require more protein then what we can deliver through fruits and veggies?
    2. Will the introduction of high protein foods such as dog food, cat food and fish flakes really influence how fast they grow and how well they reproduce?
    3. Do dubia even require protein from their food source at all?
    With this, I will start a small experiment to prove my theory. Although my experiment will be small and inconclusive because I am not experimenting on my breeders, only the growth of nymphs, using only 20 roaches of different sizes total.
    I am certain I am only reinventing the wheel here. I just want to do it anyway just to see it isolated and first hand. I will start my experiment today. When I have a good amount of feedback and or interest from you guys, I will post my theory.

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  4. #2
    Moderator JeffreH's Avatar
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    Unfortunately, we rely on information from the general web and from books for most of our research on these topics. Primary literature in peer-review journals offers some of the best information, and the topic of protein has been studied on Blattella germanica. These sources aren't as readily available to the general public without accounts through universities or some full-text prints available via Google Scholar. You'd be surprised how long it can take information from these sources to leak into the general public; I've met people who to this day believe a particular python complex is still considered subspecies of one another when a paper in 1998 raised each to full species status. 14 years, and people are still following the old nomenclature.

    If you are interested in insect nutritional studies, I would review some literature by Mark D. Finke.

    In addition to the paper on effects of protein on growth and reproduction of the German Roach (article I linked to you earlier), here is another paper of interest:
    Jones, S. A., Raubenheimer, D. (2001). Nutritional regulation in nymphs of the German cockroach, Blattella germanica
    Journal of Insect Physiology, Vol 47, Issue 10, September 2001, p 1169-1180.

    1) Depends on the nitrogen concentration of the food item being offered. Grain products tend to be higher in protein, and are fine to add to the diet. Nitrogen is often a limiting nutrient in many insect diets and is often obtained through the digestion of amino acids. Plant material as a general rule is often high in carbon (i.e. cellulose and other complex carbohydrates) and lower in nitrogen. Some insects have evolved to thrive on high cellulose diets (termites) and termites and cockroaches are both within the same Order, Blattodea. Some cockroaches are known to contain protozoans to assist in cellulose digestion, so plant matter is undoubtedly a part of the natural diet. They are decomposers, they likely feed on detritus and other junk that falls to the forest floor in the neotropics (B. dubia).

    2) Yes. It can influence them negatively in high concentrations. The type of protein is also an important consideration. I briefly talked this over with Kyle Kandilian at RoachCrossing and he too beleives that moisture is likely the bigger contributor to palatability of the food source. Other considerations are things like carotenoid concentration, which may very likely explain why oranges seems to yield better reproduction for some individuals.

    3) Yes. But not in high concentrations like most people seem to think is essential in a good gutload.
    -Jeff Howell
    ReptileBoards ( Branched from The Reptile Rooms )
    "If you give, you begin to live." -DMB

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  6. #3
    demon amphibians
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    Jeff you are a smart man that is exactly the direction i am heading in. Also i read through the article you sent and i learned in fact much more then I was already headed towards to begin with.

  7. #4
    demon amphibians
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    I have a good friend that is going to school for biology and well i started asking him questions. And he filled me in on a few key points on plant eating insects as well as mammals. What i gained from it is exactly what Jeff is talking about. So to better understand a decomposers and how they digest there food is some what similar to a herbivore such as a cow. It has bacteria like us that breaks down the cellulose in the plant matter that they eat. Just as such how a banana starts to turn brown after time. (which is a good clue as to why roaches prefer brown bananas over a banana that isn't brown or is not ripe). Even a roach has billions of these bacteria to digest there food. In order to break down things such as grass and wood roaches have a more powerful digestive system then us by far as well as some herbivore animals such as a cow. Now for the protein part (and i am simplifying the explanation i am sure Jeff can go much further in depth) when the bacteria breaks down the cellulose it goes through a change. when it does the roach digest the bacteria itself and use it as a living protein source. kinda like when we eat a steak. Thus providing the roach with a sufficient source of protein.

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  9. #5
    demon amphibians
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    Part 2
    Say Jeff and i are wrong and the dubia needs a protein source from food such as grain and what not. I mean after all we gather this information through broken, inconclusive sources. Hince the reason why I labeled this a theory. But mathematics can also provide how little amount of protein is need to be sufficient for these insects in the slightest case we are wrong.
    1.Say a roach weighs a gram.(which is the weight of a paper clip) They can weigh more and can weigh less but we will stick with a gram as an example.
    2. A person weighing 100 lbs requires at least 1 gram of protein to sustain proper growth. Which is 100 grams of protein a day. With this a person will weigh 45359 times as much as the roach.
    3. We already know a roach has a much stronger digestive system then us. For this example we will say 10 times better. But we all now it is much better then that if they can digest wood. The 1 gram roach will require .00022046 grams protein a day.
    4. A head of romaine lettuce has 7.7 grams protein. With these numbers it can proved enough protein for nearly 35,000 roaches for one day.
    lets take in to account how many veggies have more protein then romaine lettuce the numbers will blow your mind (and mine as well)

    This is an under exaggeration i am just using these numbers as an example. But it will be in this ballpark range that is for certain.
    suppose you have a colony of 1000 roaches. veggies provide more then enough protein for an insect so small even if it requires protein at all.

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  11. #6
    demon amphibians
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    Dog food and other high protein foods are not required. I have mentioned before a variety of different foods are important and i still stand by that but for the reasons of protein it does not apply. Dog food is extremely high in protein because dogs are carnivores by definition. So they need the protein. Dubia roaches are herbivores. I do not doubt for one second that they would eat a peace of meat if give to them, but something as simple as lettuce will supply every bit of protein they need. The information Jeff supplied showed studies of to much protein harmful to breeding as well as killing them.
    Before today i gave my roaches a high protein diet. I thought that the amount space i had them in hindered their reproduction because i was producing between 5000 to 7,000 a month when i should have been producing closer to 18000 a month. Well what i have found was a combination of both.

    As I mentioned before i will do a growth experiment with 10 vegetarian roaches of different sizes and 10 roaches with a variety of food such as dog food, cat food and veggies. I expect no difference. But i will give updates once a month along with an detailed explanation. Also my breeder bin will receive only veggies such as lettuce, carrots, etc. I will also give updates on the production improvements if there are any.

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    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    This is a great post! I enjoyed reading it and am looking forward to seeing the outcomes of your study.
    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203589094112277&id=1363241107&set =a.1434844115446.2055312.1363241107&source=11&ref= bookmark

  14. #8
    demon amphibians
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    It may take 3 solid months before i see any results in my breeder bins. I have babies 1 month old in my nursery bin that i only feed apples, oranges and popcorn to and they are growing just fine and rather fast if ya ask me. Of course they all grow at different rates. i have 2 month old babies in my large growing bin for nymphs and some of them are even smaller then the younger ones in my nursery bin. And up to now i have been giving them dog food and dog milk bone consistently. What i am learning from the midsize bin is how many deaths that i have. I clean that one roughly every 2 months just because it takes a few hours because i have so many in it. I usually pull out 12-20 dead roaches of different size every time i clean. Of course 20 means nothing to a colony of well over 10,000 but i would like to minimize it. And what i expect to see is less deaths in that bin by removing high protein foods. That I should see by the next cleaning in about a month and a half.

    Thanks Heather I will keep you updated.

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    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    Very interesting. Thanks!

    Mine are eating apples, gel water and Cheerios for dinner tonight. They had potato skins and carrots for their last meal. They definitely like the oranges most it seems.
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  16. #10
    demon amphibians
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    I have never had much luck with potato skins aside from sweet potato's how do you offer them?

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    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    Just rinsed well, then rinsed with dechlorinated tap water. They're just from the potatoes I peeled for dinner. I believe they just nibble for the moisture. The actual skins are left behind. They eat the little bit of potato off of them.

    They are eating apples tonight.
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  18. #12
    demon amphibians
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    right on i will give it a shot. So its the moisture there after. I have tried several times but they were only mildly excepted if it was the only thing in there to eat. Now sweet potatoes they will eat everything it took them half a day to make it disappear they took it over the milk bones and lettuce i had in there but the oranges were also devoured as well.

    tonight mine got a few brown banana's that the fruit fly's were starting to attack. I think i am also going to post a list of preferred foods and a list of foods they refuse or foods that can cause harm.

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    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    Good idea. I know mine love oranges most. They can devour a plate full in 2 days at most.

    They seems to really enjoy any fruit first, then veggies, then grains.

    Another trick I've found, if you'd like some nice fresh molted ones for frog dinners in the evening, I give mine a nice mist only from the top eggcrate layer in the morning.

    I had to move mine to a 20gal long because they are multiplying so fast. I even turned their heat lamp down to slow their breeding.
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    My focus was on food that contained the most calcium and vit A for my feeder bugs when I first started out. Too many horror stories of deficiencies, and when I moved on to dubia, I didn't give much thought to protein. I figured since they were meatier, Banjo was getting more protein. She bulked up considerably when I began feeding her roaches. I bought dry food for them from the same people, but I still have bags of it. I tossed in cat food, among other dry goods, because I had it around. Can't say whether they ate it. Then with the breeding, it was easier to see what they preferred (breakfast cereal in the form of flakes and O's), but humidity and hydration were my main concerns, as they still had to do their final molts. What they ate at that point didn't matter quite as much to me as Banjo wouldn't be eating them directly. Oranges just worked best, cuz they can stand up to the temp in breeding bin. Deliciously.
    Only recently did I add fish flakes, for the protein, and they seem to be a hit with both crickets and roaches. Easier to eat than cat food, and I don't feel like I'm stealing from my cats. Plus, once upon a time, Banjo was basically a fish, so there ya go.
    Breeding is going stellar, tho I did lose an adult male last week. Right around the time I added the fish flakes. By lost I mean he dropped dead. Don't know why but everybody else seems fine, and his death makes three: One young lady in the very beginning, and a larger than small nymph a few weeks ago, part of a group from an order that I put into breeding bin to grow. The others in that group are growing nicely and startling me when I go baby collecting. So now I have a small colony of 33 adults, but they're still busting out babies and yesterday I spotted a little lady with red/brown ootheca hanging out. If that means new pregnancy, then I already have a new pregnancy.
    I should add that everything about breeding these is new to me. First litter was March 1st and I'd guess 250-300 babies these past 3 wks.

    Heather, your roach food looks sooo appetizing.
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    Default dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    Ha ha! Thank you. They eat well. I buy lots of fruit at my house so I don't mind chopping up a few extras for the critters.
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  22. #16
    demon amphibians
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    Good news concerning calcium. Once again romaine lettuce contains 206mgs of calcium per head about 21% RDA. whatever that means if you give this with oranges you will be giving them more calcium contained in a glass of milk.

    fruits and veggies are greatly underrated when it comes to vitamins, minerals, protein, and essential amino acids. The truth about this is even we can survive just fine and much healthier on nothing but plant foods. If you have a balanced diet you will already gain 48% of your daily intake of protein from veggies and a larger percent in calcium. (people are always asking the question well why do we need to supplement our frogs with calcium? they cant get that in the wild so why do captive frogs need it?) well here is the truth about it. were do cows get calcium from? its in there milk? so does that mean they just produce calcium from nothing? the answer is NO... it is in the food they eat which is grass and other such items. Grass has lots of calcium. We cant eat it but given the information below about the roaches digestive system they can very easily digest grass. And as can other insects. The wide variety of different insects which eat plant matter that have high levels of calcium is where wild frogs get it from. some frogs can eat 100s of different types of insects a night. We cant give that in captivity because of the limited amount of feeders we can use. That's why calcium is an essential supplement in captivity.

    I personally have not given roaches grass i have no idea if they would even like it after being spoiled with oranges and lettuce and other much better tasting sweeter veggies and fruits. But if they do eat it there is your free roach food and a beautiful lawn at that. with a supplement of calcium that you would never have to question.

    when it comes to gut loading. I personally believe that vitamin enriched gut loading supplements such as orange cubes and such are a marketing scam. They are selling you something you already have in your fridge or growing in your yard. (I do believe the calcium dust gives the necessary boost. When you are feed such few types of foods. But that is it.) How many women out there look for shampoos that are rich in vitamin E and other vitamins that makes there hair healthier? So here is the question how can you enrich dead cells with vitamins. vitamins have no effect on dead cells. It is a myth companies use to market products. And yes many many other stores and companies do the same thing, one of them being pet supplement stores. Now not all products are marketing myths mind you. But many are and the calcium gut loading supplements are a big one. yeah they may have tons of calcium in them but oranges have just as much if not more that are unprocessed and more easily and naturally absorbed into the body. And that goes for insects, animals and humans alike.

    I am a top power lifter so i have spent many long days and nights researching supplements and vitamins in stores. And what i have found will have you fuming. there are supplements in stores that will cause a deficiency's in what you are taking. Such as vitamin C. some brands of vitamin C supplements will cause a deficiency in vitamin C. So you go to the doctor and he tells you you have a vitamin C deficiency so you go by more of the same product. The company makes money. If companies do that to humans what would stop them from doing it to animal supplements?

    When you have a cold you are told to drink orange juice. Did anyone know that romaine lettuce has more Vitamin C than oranges?

    This information is out there for the taking yet no one seems to know this common knowledge. Now I will say not all vitamin supplements are like this. you will have to do your research for yourselves as much as your frogs to determine which is the scam and which isn't.

    Sorry friends didn't intend on elaborating

  23. #17
    demon amphibians
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    with my last post if anyone would like to PM me on the nutritional value of any kind of veggies for you and your feeders please feel free to ask. I have a huge array of sources that could point you in a super healthy direction that could save you money and time. I can give you a complete listing of super foods that can be extremely beneficial to you and your feeders. Which of course will give your frogs and you the utmost nutrition earth has to offer.

  24. #18
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    Feel free to list away .

    I was just explaining the calcium in leafy green to another member when explaining why why give calcium and why with vita D. This is a nice addition to my teaching .
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  25. #19
    demon amphibians
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    ok lets start with vitamin D
    1. many fortified cereals such as cornflakes and cheerios have a good source- roaches love these.
    2. soy products as well as soy beans and edamame
    3. mushrooms.
    and for humans most fish. salmon in particular i wouldn't feed that to your feeders however. that is why i recommend fish as a feeder to your frogs

  26. #20
    demon amphibians
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    Default Re: dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

    calcium:
    1. collard greens
    2. kale
    3. garlic
    4.turnip greens
    5.broccoli
    6.mustard greens
    7.spinach
    8. okra
    9. grape leaves
    10. seaweed
    11.cabbage
    12. butter nut squash
    13. sweet potatos
    i can go on and on.

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