Why did my little Alfred die? (ACF)

[Verdure]

Hi there,
My beloved Alfred died today. She was an African Clawed Frog and only 8-9 months of age. My husband and I named her Alfred before we even knew the sex, but decided to stick with the name anyway.

Here's how it started. 3 days ago Alfred started having this strange spasm. I thought I spooked her while walking past and this brought on some sort of shock. Next 2 days it happened again for no reason when I was trying to feed her. First she would tense up all over, tremble and then contort, sort of bowing the head down and sideways. I was so scared because I thought she was in extreme pain. This would last for about 10 seconds. She would then just go limp in my hand and just breathe for about a minute, then swim away. I read on a site it may have been a stroke, but I don't know. There didn't seem to be any signs of red leg or bloating.

After the first spasm she sort of lost control over her right leg. Yesterday after the last spasm she lost control of her feet (but not thighs) and had a lot of trouble surfacing for air. I reduced the amount of water in the tank so she wouldn't stress out. Her appetite was gradually decreasing, on the day of the first spasm she was hungry, tried to get food but had the spasm and didn't eat after that. Next day she ate 1 shrimp, yesterday she ate 2 but I have a feeling those were regurgitated later. Yesterday I also saw her trying to eat her own shedded skin. It seems to me also that lately she was shedding more than usual.

After the spasm yesterday I was resolved to take her to a vet this morning, I had an appointment ready at 10 40 am but when I woke up she was at the bottom of her tank, belly up. I picked her up and brought her to the surface but she wasn't breathing anymore.

This was a very sad loss for me, I grew very attached to her, and she was so young and I can't help but feel I failed her.

Here's some info about the tank setup. The tank itself is about 60 litres in size, temperature was set to about 21-22 Celsius, I did a 40% water change twice a week with a gravel pump. She had about 5 elodea densa plants, one anubias and one moss ball. I also had water wisteria, but it didn't live very long after purchase. I bought those plants about 2 months ago and noticed some snails in the tank. I wonder if the plants or the snails carried some sort of infection with them to my little Alfred. I fed her freeze-dried river shrimp, gammarus, tubifex, sometimes bloodworms for about 10-15 minutes each day.

This is all very baffling as I am the type of person who takes pet care seriously. Before purchasing Alfred I made sure to read any info I could find on ACFs and aquatic frogs. I knew what I was getting into and was meticulous about water changes, keeping my hands clean and making sure not to contaminate any of Alfred's things with soaps etc.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
(may all your froggies live long and happy lives)

[mpmistr]

Hi there,
My beloved Alfred died today. She was an African Clawed Frog and only 8-9 months of age. My husband and I named her Alfred before we even knew the sex, but decided to stick with the name anyway.

Here's how it started. 3 days ago Alfred started having this strange spasm. I thought I spooked her while walking past and this brought on some sort of shock. Next 2 days it happened again for no reason when I was trying to feed her. First she would tense up all over, tremble and then contort, sort of bowing the head down and sideways. I was so scared because I thought she was in extreme pain. This would last for about 10 seconds. She would then just go limp in my hand and just breathe for about a minute, then swim away. I read on a site it may have been a stroke, but I don't know. There didn't seem to be any signs of red leg or bloating.

After the first spasm she sort of lost control over her right leg. Yesterday after the last spasm she lost control of her feet (but not thighs) and had a lot of trouble surfacing for air. I reduced the amount of water in the tank so she wouldn't stress out. Her appetite was gradually decreasing, on the day of the first spasm she was hungry, tried to get food but had the spasm and didn't eat after that. Next day she ate 1 shrimp, yesterday she ate 2 but I have a feeling those were regurgitated later. Yesterday I also saw her trying to eat her own shedded skin. It seems to me also that lately she was shedding more than usual.

After the spasm yesterday I was resolved to take her to a vet this morning, I had an appointment ready at 10 40 am but when I woke up she was at the bottom of her tank, belly up. I picked her up and brought her to the surface but she wasn't breathing anymore.

This was a very sad loss for me, I grew very attached to her, and she was so young and I can't help but feel I failed her.

Here's some info about the tank setup. The tank itself is about 60 litres in size, temperature was set to about 21-22 Celsius, I did a 40% water change twice a week with a gravel pump. She had about 5 elodea densa plants, one anubias and one moss ball. I also had water wisteria, but it didn't live very long after purchase. I bought those plants about 2 months ago and noticed some snails in the tank. I wonder if the plants or the snails carried some sort of infection with them to my little Alfred. I fed her freeze-dried river shrimp, gammarus, tubifex, sometimes bloodworms for about 10-15 minutes each day.

This is all very baffling as I am the type of person who takes pet care seriously. Before purchasing Alfred I made sure to read any info I could find on ACFs and aquatic frogs. I knew what I was getting into and was meticulous about water changes, keeping my hands clean and making sure not to contaminate any of Alfred's things with soaps etc.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
(may all your froggies live long and happy lives)

Hey there.
Is 60 litres roughly 15 US Gallons? That size should be okay for a single frog, though really it's the bare minimum.

Temperatures sound good, snails shouldn't of been a huge problem.. plants are fine.. I am assuming you used dechlorinator to treat your tap water otherwise 40% water changes are fine, but twice a week seems a bit excessive.

My only guesses would be a poor diet or intestinal blockage.

What did you use for substrate? Gravel could be ingested and cause a blockage.

Freeze dried foods are not good for these frogs long term, they can also cause intestinal issues. A combination of wet/frozen, live, and pelleted foods seem to work best.

Hope that helps, sorry for your loss.

[Verdure]

60 litres is about 13 gallons. I started out with that and was going to upgrade anyway as she got bigger. I read everywhere that the bare minimum is 10 gallons (45 litres). How big should the aquarium be? I have a long aquarium, rather than tall.

Yes, I always used dechlorinator to treat the water and let it stand for 24 hours. The reason I changed the water so frequently is because everywhere I read it said that ACFs are very messy and need frequent water changes (one site even said 95% water changes twice a week). On average it seemed to be roughly 40% twice a week.

Thanks for the info about the food. I had just ordered some Reptomin yesterday as I heard it is good for ACFs, but now it's too late

The substrate I had was large and small gravel and aquarium sand... Is it better to leave it bare?

Thanks for taking the time to help.

[mpmistr]

I would switch substrate to bare bottom or smooth sand (avoid the sharp stuff) or large pebbles (though I find these hard to clean).

Reptomin would of been a lot better for your frog than the freeze dried stuff, honestly I would just toss that stuff out because it's really not a good staple food for ACF (or anything else for that matter).

10 gallons is the bare minimum on most care sheets and yeah 13 gallons would be okay but me -personally- I think ACF need larger tanks to be happy, though I doubt this led to any premature death.

Did you have a filter of any sort? Biofiltration is really kind of a must for these frogs, large water changes are good now and then but I would rather have a filter and do a 50% weekly water change.

[Verdure]

Thanks for all the info. I thought I was giving her a good diet... I should have come here first. I will also upgrade any future froggies to a larger tank.

I didn't have a filter because I thought that it would be too intrusive, but I was considering purchasing the Whisper filter when I got a new tank (plus less frequent water changes would have been welcome), are those good for ACFs?

Once again, thanks for all your help. I should have come here sooner.

[reptileszz]

Freeze dried foods are not good for these frogs long term, they can also cause intestinal issues. A combination of wet/frozen, live, and pelleted foods seem to work best.

Hi, I am very sorry for your loss. Michael, I have a question about the above "wet/frozen" foods. Can you elaborate on what those are? I am new to the ACFs and have reptomin (if they ever seek out food that floats), the HBH frog pellets and now the special xenopus sinking pellet from xenopus.com but I want to vary the diet if I can. I am not planning on using anything freeze dried as I have heard they are not good.

Thank you,
Carole

[mpmistr]

Thanks for all the info. I thought I was giving her a good diet... I should have come here first. I will also upgrade any future froggies to a larger tank.

I didn't have a filter because I thought that it would be too intrusive, but I was considering purchasing the Whisper filter when I got a new tank (plus less frequent water changes would have been welcome), are those good for ACFs?

Once again, thanks for all your help. I should have come here sooner.

@Verdure -- Filtration is definitively a must especially in that small of a tank. They do no harm to frogs what so ever, don't believe what you may have read on some care sheets. A Tetra Whisper filter would work fine, get a beefy one I would suggest the Whisper 40i model. I use a rather beefy Eheim (2217) on my 40(US) gallon tank and my frogs show no ill effects, in fact they hang out near the spray bar often.

ACF produce solid feces and are messy animals as you probably know, you can never have enough filtration.

@reptileszz -- Wet/frozen foods are found usually in the freezer section or your local fish store. They usually come in blister packs.. examples would be frozen blood worm, mysis shrimp, brine, krill, silversides all make a good occasional *treat* though I wouldn't recommend any of that food as a staple. There is also beef heart in those fridges, I recommend against it.. I don't think frogs should be eating much if any mammal flesh (the fat of mammals tends to block arteries in amphibians over time).. when would an ACF ever eat a COW?

Your reptomin/HBH pellets are a good staple, I feed my frogs reptomin and they seem to be doing very well. Only one of my frogs will bother with HBH pellets, my frogs are a big large now for them and for some reason 2 out of 3 couldn't care less about them and just ignore them. It takes a while but your frogs will look to the surface for reptomin eventually, my advice would be to hand feed your frogs near the surface and stop feeding sinking pellets.. eventually they WILL learn to look to the surface for food. When I go near my tank my frogs go NUTS near the top of the water because they know that's where the food will be. I've seen my frogs actually jump a few inches biting at the air! They can and will learn, especially when it comes to their meals!

In my opinion once ACF get large they do really well on candian nightcrawlers, the ones you can buy at bait stores or even walmart. I feed earthworms to my frogs probably more than anything else. One large nightcrawler every other day keeps them fat and healthy. Since they swallow them whole there is little mess or clean up too, besides their rather enormous poops afterwards lol.. I also feed my frogs crickets now and then, since in the wild they would probably consume a lot of arthopods (I would love to get some dubai roaches some day for my ACF).

[reptileszz]

@reptileszz -- Wet/frozen foods are found usually in the freezer section or your local fish store. They usually come in blister packs.. examples would be frozen blood worm, mysis shrimp, brine, krill, silversides all make a good occasional *treat* though I wouldn't recommend any of that food as a staple. There is also beef heart in those fridges, I recommend against it.. I don't think frogs should be eating much if any mammal flesh (the fat of mammals tends to block arteries in amphibians over time).. when would an ACF ever eat a COW?

Your reptomin/HBH pellets are a good staple, I feed my frogs reptomin and they seem to be doing very well. Only one of my frogs will bother with HBH pellets, my frogs are a big large now for them and for some reason 2 out of 3 couldn't care less about them and just ignore them. It takes a while but your frogs will look to the surface for reptomin eventually, my advice would be to hand feed your frogs near the surface and stop feeding sinking pellets.. eventually they WILL learn to look to the surface for food. When I go near my tank my frogs go NUTS near the top of the water because they know that's where the food will be. I've seen my frogs actually jump a few inches biting at the air! They can and will learn, especially when it comes to their meals!

In my opinion once ACF get large they do really well on candian nightcrawlers, the ones you can buy at bait stores or even walmart. I feed earthworms to my frogs probably more than anything else. One large nightcrawler every other day keeps them fat and healthy. Since they swallow them whole there is little mess or clean up too, besides their rather enormous poops afterwards lol.. I also feed my frogs crickets now and then, since in the wild they would probably consume a lot of arthopods (I would love to get some dubai roaches some day for my ACF).

I seem to be able to drop one sinking pellet at a time in front of the frogs and they will eat them. They are very shy and are never near the top. I can't imagine being able to coax them up there. Maybe when they get bigger? Also, I just bought a pound of the xenopus.com sinkers. I want to use them hehe.

Where are you? I raise dubia roaches for my dragons. I can certainly spare a few.

Thanks for the response!
Carole

[mpmistr]

Are they juveniles? They seem to get bolder as they age and they become more tame as well.

I am sure the xenopus.com stuff is quality stuff so I would want to use it too.

I'm in southern Illinois if you're looking to sell dubai just let me know! I can't seem to find any around here.

[Verdure]

@Carole, thank you for your condolences.

@Michael, thanks again! Can you recommend any good literature on caring for ACFs? Seems that care sheets are all over the place. Are these any good -
http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator...46624&mode=prd
http://content.www.rspca.org.uk/cmsp...&ssbinary=true

RSPCA, as you may know, is an animal welfare charity in the UK.

Also, is it worth purchasing lymnozyme to use during water changes to prevent red leg? Is it true that blood worms may carry infections that can harm frogs?

[reptileszz]

Are they juveniles? They seem to get bolder as they age and they become more tame as well.

I am sure the xenopus.com stuff is quality stuff so I would want to use it too.

I'm in southern Illinois if you're looking to sell dubai just let me know! I can't seem to find any around here.

They are juveniles, pretty small at about 1.5 inches. I think they are bigger than when I got them 2 weeks ago but not sure.

Are you near Chicago? There is an excellent reptile show coming up in Tinley Park next weekend. I heartily recommend it as it is a super clean, nice show. There would definitely be some dubia roaches for sale there. I'm way over in CT. Link would help. http://www.narbc.com/

Thanks!
Carole

[mpmistr]

@Carole, thank you for your condolences.

@Michael, thanks again! Can you recommend any good literature on caring for ACFs? Seems that care sheets are all over the place. Are these any good -
http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator...46624&mode=prd
http://content.www.rspca.org.uk/cmsp...&ssbinary=true

Those care sheets seem fine, though they seem to be focused more on the husbandry of X. Laevis as a lab animals, as pet owners we expect our frogs to live quite a bit longer.

One of the best caresheets can be found on Wet Web Media FrogsArtNeale if you read enough you'll start to realize that ACF/ADF should be kept more like fish than like a typical frog.

RSPCA, as you may know, is an animal welfare charity in the UK.

In the US we have the ASPCA, a very similar organization.

Also, is it worth purchasing lymnozyme to use during water changes to prevent red leg? Is it true that blood worms may carry infections that can harm frogs?

Medication should be avoided unless absolutely necessary, proper husbandry is the best prevention of red leg. Do weekly water changes and add a dechlorinator (like Prime) to tap water that has sat out for 24 hours and do not over stock your aquarium and red leg should never become an issue. Would it hurt to OWN some Lymozyme? Probably not but I would strive to never need to use it.

@reptileszz

Your frogs are still quite young, they will get much larger, bolder and tame. When I first started keeping ACF I was a bit discouraged on how small/timid they were but now that my frogs are 4 inches or more now, they're swimming all over the place now.

I was in Chicago back in December, sadly it's about 4 hours away, I live much closer to St. Louis.

[reptileszz]

I was in Chicago back in December, sadly it's about 4 hours away, I live much closer to St. Louis.

Doh! There was a show today in St. Louis. Closes in 15 min But there is another one in May! St. Louis Reptile Show

Thanks for all your help!
Carole

[Verdure]

@Michael
Thanks again for your advice.

Those care sheets seem fine, though they seem to be focused more on the husbandry of X. Laevis as a lab animals, as pet owners we expect our frogs to live quite a bit longer.

Yeah, I didn't like the guidelines on how much water should be in a tank per frog, definitely too little.



Also, I was wondering if you could describe to me your tank set up, how many frogs you have, how you feed them etc? And do you fill your whole aquarium up with water?
My area has rather hard water, is this a problem at all? I noticed because one of the buckets I used to change the water developed some mineral deposits.

And, one more thing, how exactly is the freeze-dried food bad for ACFs? Reptomin is also dry and it would seem to me would also cause constipation?

[mpmistr]

I keep three nearly adult ACF in a 40 gallon breeder tank (roughly 45 US Gallons). I keep my aquarium filled but lower the water about 3 inches below maximum capacity so they have room to breath (I also use a glass lid to prevent escapes. I have a lot of floating plants and some jungle vals and driftwood for decoration.

Hard water is good for ACF, they actually prefer it. I wouldn't worry about that. I actually added crushed coral to my filter media because my water is soft and i wanted to add more hardness for my frogs.

Freeze Dried foods are hard to digest, I believe because of the way they are processed they 'gum up' when digested, they cause intestinal blockages and bloat. Pelleted foods generally do not.

I personally feed my frogs a diet of reptomin, canadian nightcrawlers, and crickets for treats..

[Miss Blue]

So sorry for your loss! Its easy to tell you are a pet lover and are upset over this, I dont blame you! I do not own ACF's so cannot speak to that, however I do encourage you do all the research you can (and discussions on this forum are so helpful!) and try again, another ACF would be very lucky to have you care for them

[Verdure]

@Michael, thanks again Your setup sounds great! I bet your froggies love it. They look so cute too!
Hope you don't mind one last question Are all your froggies the same sex? If not, what will you do or do do when they mate? What are you going to do with the tadpoles?

@Miss Blue, thanks so much for your kind words! Your little ADFs are so cute! May I ask you the same question I asked Michael, what are you going to do with the tadpoles, I see your froggies amplexing in every other photo

Yes, I was very upset (very very upset). I know some people say they are "only" frogs, but what do they know
I do want to get another ACF (maybe a group) and do it better this time. I thought I did all the research possible and made the best decisions based on that... I wish I found this forum earlier.

[mpmistr]

@Michael, thanks again Your setup sounds great! I bet your froggies love it. They look so cute too!
Hope you don't mind one last question Are all your froggies the same sex? If not, what will you do or do do when they mate? What are you going to do with the tadpoles?

Honestly I'm not sure. My dark 'wild type' frog is most likely female, she's about 1 year old and no nuptial pads, and her cloaca looks female to me.

My other pigmented frog is quite a bit smaller than the other two but has no 'dark hands' yet, but I've only had him since September and he was fairly small when I got him. I want to say he's a male because of his size but no nuptial pads has me wondering, I will give him a few months and see if he matures. He's about 3 inches.

My albino is a complete mystery. for one he is very large.. about 4 inches and almost 1 year old now. He gets nuptial pads but they're not very dark at all. He/she is just as large as my female frog and I've never heard any of my frogs call nor have they tried to get frisky.. so your guess is as good as mine. I have the most androgynous frogs ever...



I'm not sure what I'd do with tadpoles. I just moved to a new town and there is a local fish store here I suppose I would see if he'd be interested in selling froglets if my frogs were to reproduce. I'm kind of hoping my frogs are all female so they can cohabit the same tank without any mating issues.

Yes, I was very upset (very very upset). I know some people say they are "only" frogs, but what do they know
I do want to get another ACF (maybe a group) and do it better this time. I thought I did all the research possible and made the best decisions based on that... I wish I found this forum earlier.

Doing research prior to purchasing is usually a good idea for any pet you wish to keep. I wish I had done this too, I went out and grabbed a tank and a frog and threw it all together and didn't do my homework either when I started keeping ACF. I had ammonia issues and the tank was not cycled. What I was lucky enough to have was a friend with a small 'mature' filter he had kept on one of his tanks and he let me use it. The bacteria from this filter seeded my tank and cycled it very quickly before much harm was done. Now I know better. I keep *3* HOB filters running on a 20g with a few fish in it to seed future tanks with them (I used them to seed my 40 gallon tank and cycle it in 1 week for my canister filter). It's a method that actually works, believe it or not.

My best advice is when you get new frogs, get the biggest tank you can afford/fit in your home. Even in my 40 gallon tank with only 3 frogs I still wind up doing weekly 25% to 50% water changes and even though the tank is heavily planted there is always nitrate present. These guys produce waste very quickly and I just can't imagine keeping them in anything less than I do right now. In fact when I have the space I would like to move my frogs to a 75 gallon or larger tank.

Larger tanks are just easier to keep than smaller ones, people seem to think small tanks are easier to maintain, it's actually the other way around. Cycle your tank first, there are a lot of articles online about cycling, the best methods are to seed it with used filter media, you could use a few small, hardy fish to seed your tank and cycle it (though "fish in" cycling is a bit cruel) or you could do a fishless (or in this case frogless cycle) though that tends to take ~6 weeks.

Good luck and don't give up! I also keep fish and I've lost quite a few, I've just been fortunate with my frogs thankfully. There is always more to learn!

[Verdure]

@Michael, that photo is so cute, ACFs are sweeties

The worst thing is that I actually did research and thought I knew what I was doing, I read all the care sheets out there, borrowed a few books out of my local library (there is so little out there about aquatic frogs) and it still went wrong. It must have been the gravel or the food... When my husband and I saw these cute little frogs in the pet shop we instantly fell in love but spent a few days reading up all we could and buying supplies.

I agree about the tank size, I've had my eye on this 40 gallon tank for sale in my local pet shop and will probably buy that. Anyway, more space is always better. I love seeing animals frolic in a nice environment We were going to buy a larger tank for Alfred this summer, but unfortunately ...

I will definitely be cycling the tank, just got to find some filter media somewhere. I would rather cycle without fish since most fish can't be kept with ACFs anyway. Hope my local aquatics shop is free of disease.

Thanks for your support, Michael, I learned a lot, but won't stop there I will definitely post on this forum when I do get some froggies, make sure everything is ok for them.

[mpmistr]

@Michael, that photo is so cute, ACFs are sweeties

The worst thing is that I actually did research and thought I knew what I was doing, I read all the care sheets out there, borrowed a few books out of my local library (there is so little out there about aquatic frogs) and it still went wrong. It must have been the gravel or the food... When my husband and I saw these cute little frogs in the pet shop we instantly fell in love but spent a few days reading up all we could and buying supplies.

Since X. Laevis is basically an aquatic lab rat most of the care sheets are geared towards keeping them as lab animals. I think I've read most of the care sheets on the internet and while a lot are accurate there's more than a few that are simply dead wrong. I think these are pretty darn easy animals to keep when you think about it though, they have a few basic needs but if you can meet those needs then they are a pretty darn hardy, long lived animal.

I agree about the tank size, I've had my eye on this 40 gallon tank for sale in my local pet shop and will probably buy that. Anyway, more space is always better. I love seeing animals frolic in a nice environment We were going to buy a larger tank for Alfred this summer, but unfortunately ...

Don't be discouraged. I think once you have a larger, cycled tank you will be able to enjoy these guys a lot more. They are very active in large tanks and often swim around, explore (looking for food of course).

I will definitely be cycling the tank, just got to find some filter media somewhere. I would rather cycle without fish since most fish can't be kept with ACFs anyway. Hope my local aquatics shop is free of disease.

Thanks for your support, Michael, I learned a lot, but won't stop there I will definitely post on this forum when I do get some froggies, make sure everything is ok for them.

Not a problem at all I am glad I can help. Have you considered using invertebrates to aid in the cycling process? You could perhaps add inexpensive american glass shrimp (commonly sold as ghost shrimp in the US) to your tank when you are cycling, you may lose a few but they don't live very long anyways and are prone to randomly dying regardless. Once your tank is cycled the shrimp will become food or even better, little scavengers to eat left over food if you are lucky enough to have frogs that are indifferent to them (mine ignore them completely). I've also heard of people using apple/mystery snails to help cycle tanks as well. They don't create much bio waste but they would help in the creation of the bacteria to begin the nitrification process.