Green frog + Bullfrog / Dusted crickets

[Gnag the nameless]

I am actually addressing 2 issues in this thread, so the title may be deceiving.

Here are my frogs and their setup:

American Bullfroglet [Rana Catesbiana] -Gnag the Nameless:
2.5 inches whilst squatting
Brown coloration
Female

Green froglet [Rana Clamitans] -Bumpy Digtoad:
2.0-2.1 inches whilst squatting
Brown coloration
Female

Tank setup:
Gnag the nameless's Album: Gnag and Bumpy's domain

First issue: Green frog + Bullfrog?
As of late, Gnag and Bumpy have both been growing a lot. It was the evening, and I was watching Gnag and Bumpy hunt, as I often do. Gnag was out, going after a cricket, and Bumpy, spotting another, stalked out of the cave, getting ready to jump. She hesitated for about 10 seconds as is normal. During those 10 seconds, I noticed a ridge going down her back. Instantly, my hours of frog research kicked in, and I thought "Bullfrogs don't have that! Green frogs do!" And then I realized. Even before this, I had doubts of Bumpy's bullfrog-ness. The narrow nose, smaller size, and shyer behavior all suggested this. Gnag's fearless attitude, size, more blunt nose, and ravenous appetite, growth, coloration and patterns, as well as the fold around her ear confirms she is not a Green frog.

So now you know my problem. I have insufficient money to buy a whole new 30G [but enough for a 20G] tank, setup, and filter for Bumpy as most of my money is going into the Frog First Aid kit. Bumpy and Gnag have been living together for nearly 6 months, with no problem whatsoever. No fighting, aggressive croaking, none of it. I am planning to get a 55 Gallon for Gnag in 6 months to a year from now, and I will keep the 30G for Bumpy. I am seperating them, no matter what, if anything aggressive occurs, or when Gnag gets big enough to make a snack out of Bumpy. Still, is it bad for them to be together?

Second issue: Dusting crickets

Currently, I have a UVB bulb on the tank for 9-12 hours every day, tilted so it provides light but still enough to give my frogs the Vitamin D-3 they need. Also, I gutload crickets with Zilla's cricket diet and quencher. However, I do not dust crickets because of the setup. I could do it, but due to the water, it would be tricky. Is the current diet + UVB treatment enough to prevent MBD in 2 growing frogs? If not, how many and how much should I dust crickets?

Thank you in advance. My frogs mean so much to me, I'm trying to cover every possible factor.

[Bombina Bob]

Hi there Gnag
I really wouldnt worry about the two frogs being together,(if one is larger than i would worry), but they both come from the same area in eastern north america and they coexist with eachother in ponds lakes and slow moving rivers. A 20 to 30 gallon should be enough for the green frog. If Gnag starts to bully Bumpy a large steralite tub would work if you need to separate them, just add 3-4 inches of water, a dry spot for basking and a hide, and i almost forgot, A LID

Good luck with your frogs

[Gnag the nameless]

Yeah, both frogs have lived in peace together for quite a long time. I'm just going to move Gnag when she gets too big.

Gnag already bullies Bumpy a bit, food competition and resolving it is one tricky thing I have to do. Usually, I get Gnag to go after crickets at one end of the tank whilst Bumpy, by the cave, goes after crickets while she can.

[UncleChester]

Do you have any recent clear pictures of your frogs, specifically showing their backs? The ridges along the backs of a green frog are usually visible at a very young age (even while the tail is still present). You had posted an older picture of the two of them together and I couldn't see any ridges. One of the frogs was partially obscured though.

[Gnag the nameless]

No, sorry Brian. I'll try and get some photo's.

Sorry for the long wait. I've been busy setting up a 20G High tank for Bumpy. I'll explain the situation:

Last night, I was watching the frogs hunt, as I normally do, and Gnag had just leapt after a cricket, eating it whole. I'd been feeding them dusted crickets as well. Anyways, Gnag turned, about to head back into the cave, when Bumpy stepped beside her facing her side, croaked aggressively, and violently bit at her, twice! There were no crickets nearby, and I was watching silently. Immediately, I moved to push Bumpy away from Gnag, and they both fled into the cave. For the rest of the night, Gnag did not eat one more cricket, and Bumpy had 7 instead of her regular 3-5. I'm not sure what caused Bumpy to act so violently, but this is definitely a first. Nothing major has occurred since then, but I am not risking another incident.

Earlier today, I consulted my friends on the matter, and they say I should not seperate them, that the frogs may get lonely or it is a waste. However, none of them own frogs, let alone Ranids. Lastly, if Gnag turns on Bumpy, the results could be horrific. Gnag is much larger, and has a larger mouth. And Bumpy's legs, though they are strong, could fit into Gnag's mouth. So, basically, I am not risking anything. The setup should be finished by midnight in my time, and Bumpy will be placed into it immediately.

I do know that Bumpy will need a larger tank, but I simply do not have the money for a new 30G and decor/equipment. I do have a small filter, but constant maintenance will have to be put into play. I will post a picture of the finished 20G when it is done.

Thank you in advance.

[Gnag the nameless]

Just placed Bumpy into her new tank only 5 minutes ago. Since my camera is out of battery, I'll have to wait until it's charged to take photo's.

Bumpy seems really scared, she's breathing fast, and not moving around much. I'm really worried. Is this normal for a W/C frog moving into a new tank?

[demon amphibians]

Hi there Gnag
I really wouldnt worry about the two frogs being together,(if one is larger than i would worry), but they both come from the same area in eastern north america and they coexist with eachother in ponds lakes and slow moving rivers. A 20 to 30 gallon should be enough for the green frog. If Gnag starts to bully Bumpy a large steralite tub would work if you need to separate them, just add 3-4 inches of water, a dry spot for basking and a hide, and i almost forgot, A LID

Good luck with your frogs

I don't wanna step over you bob about the frogs being together. So I apologize if i come across disrespectful. If one frog is big enough to eat the other it is never a good idea to keep them together, whether they are the same species or if they live in the same area or not. Right now bullfrogs are a pest in the area i live because they are destroying the native inhabitants mostly the other species of frogs. There is a huge list that they are just devouring. There is a big difference between wild bullfrogs and captive frogs however what they choose to eat is always the same. And they just love smaller frogs. I went fishing with a friend once and nothing was biting so we went frog hunting we caught over 30 bullfrogs of various sizes i put them all in a cooler. I took them home and was setting up a tank for them. when i checked on them i realized that one bullfrog had another frog in its mouth they were both almost the same size. Well my wild frog adventures soon came to a quick end needless to say. No matter how much i fed them they would just keep eating each other. Captive frogs will do the same especially if they are different species. best bet keep them separate. You don't want someone to turn up missing.

[demon amphibians]

Just placed Bumpy into her new tank only 5 minutes ago. Since my camera is out of battery, I'll have to wait until it's charged to take photo's.

Bumpy seems really scared, she's breathing fast, and not moving around much. I'm really worried. Is this normal for a W/C frog moving into a new tank?

Yes very normal, my frog acts that way every time i clean her home. she should calm down in an hour or two.

[Gnag the nameless]

You're like a cool breeze during a warm summers day, Demon Amphibians. Glad to know that it's normal.

Thanks

[UncleChester]

They won't get lonely- seperating them was a good idea especially if the size difference is getting noticable. An American Bullfrog can take down prey that you wouldn't think will fit inside them until you see it happen. So good work, and give the recently moved frog some time to settle back in before you start to worry to much

[Gnag the nameless]

I didn't think they would get lonely, I've read that American bullfrogs don't like being with other frogs. Not sure about Green frogs and how much they like being with other frogs, though I doubt it's any different.

Size difference was definitely worrying. Gnag's mouth could envelope Bumpy's legs with ease, and maybe half of her body. Glad that there is no possibility frog-eat-frog action now. I've heard of American bullfrogs taking down birds and bats, and I've seen more than one video of an adult American bullfrog hunting and then devouring a mouse only slightly smaller than it

I'm glad I did it, it might make things less stressful for both frogs- in Bumpy's case, once she settles down.
Food competition will no longer be an issue, either. And as for water changing, I've got that water conditioner now, so that'll be no problem. My only concern is the filter in Bumpy's tank, I'll need a larger and more powerful one eventually. Even so, it fits the bill for now.

Thanks for the advice, Brian

[Gnag the nameless]

Bumpy's already settling in, finding nice spots by the piece of driftwood I put in the tank She's not found the cave supported by moss yet, but I bet she will. That, and the driftwood both give great basking spots and hiding spots. I've placed one cricket in the tank, though I doubt she'll eat it. Gnag is already acting different, as if she were less stressed out. She's more out in the open than normal. Maybe it's just me, but still. Oh, and I nearly forgot: I have wallpaper on the back and one side of Bumpy's tank, I have to leave one side open for the UVB lamp.

[I washed the driftwood very thoroughly before adding it to the tank, and used the water-conditioner on it as well.]

[Bombina Bob]

Im glad to hear that bumpy has settled into her tank, its usually normal for the rana species to get stressed and jumpy when startled and Brian is right, the frogs will not get lonely. and Deamon amphibians no offense taken, i didnt mean to say they can be together if they are two different sizes but you are definatley right about that.

[Gnag the nameless]

Yeah, she's still jumpy, but she always has been.

Also, she just molted her skin. Maybe stress caused that? Other than being scared, though, she seems fine.

[Psychotic]

It's nice having them in separate tanks. But I just wanted to point out that green frogs will also eat other frogs. They are similar to bullfrogs in that they will try to eat anything that moves no matter if it's another frog. I keep both bullfrogs and green frogs.

The aggression you saw was not just because the other frog was a different kind. During feeding they get very excited and will lunge at anything that moves. They will bully each other. Bite each other on mistake. As long as they are relatively the same size however they have never tried to actually eat each other. They will fight over crickets. I normally feed them separately to avoid this.

Also if you ever get another frog be it either green frog on bullfrog they will sometimes bully each other without any food involved. I have one big male green frog that has claimed the entire shelf thing I built for them to sit on. If any of the other two green frogs attempt to get up there while he is there, he will push them off.

For me it is the opposite when it comes to temperament between green frogs and bullfrogs. All three of my bullfrogs are shy (unless it's feeding time). They hide all the time. They will only come out at night if they think I'm asleep. My green frogs can be seen out any time during the night or day and are not shy at all. They always think I'm going to be feeding them and will even jump into my hand thinking I have food.

As for croaking, that has nothing to do with aggression. My bullfrogs and green frogs do it all the time. They have several different types of calls. They even making little sounds when they eat. Even females croak. However they have different croaks than the males and usually do it less frequently. They do not do the typical mating calls either. So when sexing, sound isn't a very good indicator unless you are familiar with the various calls they do. I always go by how big the frogs tympanic membrane is to sex. On a male they are huge and there is no doubt if it's a male or female lol. As a juvie it can be a little harder to tell the difference in size.

Here is a male and female comparison and you can also see their ridges very well in case you might have any doubts about if you have a green frogs vs. a bullfrog.

Male:


Female:

[Psychotic]

Thought I should clarify on the bullfrog sounds. Males vocalize much much more often than females. However females can make sounds too. Only males make advertisement calls (mating call). They are also more likely to make the long grating sound they do. I have not been able to find a sound clip of that. I guess I'll need to make my own. Mine do it during feeding and I think they are telling each other to, "Stay away from my cricket!". They can also make a sound that sounds a lot like a green frogs "rubber band" sounding mating call. However it is much shorter and deeper in tone and not much of a twang. They make this sound when they push each other. It's a territorial call.

Sounds that I have heard both male and females make are release calls, startled calls, and they can both scream (very disturbing). The release call is usually a quick call that is done over and over until let go. It sounds more like the "Ribbit" sound that people associate with frogs. To me it sounds a little like a zipper being zipped kind of slow.
A started call or alarm call it a quick chirp like "Eep" sound. Though mine also make that sound when they pounce on crickets. It's adorable!
The scream is a sound they make when they are very distressed. It sounds like a mix between a cat yowling and baby crying. I have not heard my frogs make this sound. But I've seen videos of it.



Here is a website with with various calls you can actually listen too. Sounds of Lithobates catesbeianus - American Bullfrog
Much better than trying to describe what they sound like. The only sound that is missing is that grunting/grating sound. Other bullfrog owners probably know what I'm talking about.

[Psychotic]

Another interesting video with some of the sounds that bullfrogs and green frogs make.

[Gnag the nameless]

Wow! You're like the Frog Forum Ranid expert, Psychotic!

Yeah, Green frogs are almost identical to Bullfrogs. I have a tough time distinguishing even the adults of each species from one another at my nearby lake.

Bumpy is the most shy frog I've ever seen. Move too fast, move within her line of sight, she flies into a frenzy of swimming, and then ducking undercover. Gnag, even when I am moving around a lot, will head into hiding at a considerably slower rate than Bumpy. Also, she's much more photogenic- she will sit still for a very long time. My avatar photo is one of her. I had aimed the flashlight down at her, but I only did this for a few seconds so as not to stun her.

I tell their genders by the eardrum and size. I was also mystified, since female bullfrogs aren't supposed to croak from what I've read. So, that explains it, and reinforces the statement that Bumpy is a green frog.

I am certain Gnag is not a Green frog, the ridge around her ear is very pronounced and her coloration and patterns are not like that of a Green frog, but a Bullfrog. Her nose is more blunt, and I cannot see any ridge going down her back, at all.

That female looks a lot like Bumpy, except Bumpy is a darker color. The ridge along the female's back is also the same as Bumpy's, a bit harder to discern than the males.

As for their sounds, I've been hearing 3:
The grating sound
The adorable "Eep!" [I love that one.]
And the territorial sound


Honestly, I'm not sure if I made the right choice in seperating the frogs. Bumpy seems less active unless scared, and then she goes into a frenzy. Gnag hasn't been active, but she never is during the day. However, it's only been the first day. Hopefully, the night will bring better results.

Here's Bumpy's new setup:

The setup from the front. I had to keep one side of the tank bare for the UVB light.

The water area. I will place crickets on the water reeds so they do not drown and she can spot them easily.

Her land area other than the driftwood. She was in the cave during this photo.

A front view of the tank. You can see her in the cave.

I'm still very concerned, she doesn't seem happy. She's hiding, and with fewer hiding spots than I'd originally wanted, is scared too. I might move the log onto land partially to provide cover. I've only 10$ spare as of now, so I can't get much more decorations. Any ideas?

[Psychotic]

Even though it can take 3-5 years for a bullfrog to fully mature, it is still a good idea to separate them. The bullfrog would eventually get much bigger than the green frog. Mine don't seem to care one way or the other if they have "friends" in with them or not. As long as they get food they are happy lol.

Bumpy is probably just getting used to her new home. I'm sure you would be a little scared if you were moved to a strange new place all of a sudden. Give her a week, and she should come around and be back to her old self.

As for decoration, you don't have to spend a ton of money. You can even use what most people would consider trash. I like to use broken flower pots as hides. Or plastic bowls upside down with an arch cut in the side to make a cave. If you have any dollar stores or something similar, you can find a lot of neat things to decorate with for cheap. That is what I do. I just make sure there is nothing sharp or any small things they could stuck in. You can also bring in things from outside. Like bark and branches. However you have to either boil them or bake them to kill anything harmful before adding to the frog tanks.

Your tank looks very nice and I'm sure you frogs are happy living in them.

[Gnag the nameless]

Yeah, I agree. All I am worried about is Bumpy settling in, and also, it will be more difficult maintaining 2 setups. However, if it's for the frogs, I'm up to the task without hesitation. I love 'em, they're one of the 3 most important things to me in life:
Family, Friends, and Frogs

I might try that.... I have a few flower pots in my garden which aren't in use, 2 of which are broken. Bumpy is a very skittish frog, even when she was in the 30G, she was still very shy. Her skittishness is probably due to the fact both frogs are W/C. It's funny, Gnag and Bumpy are opposite in that aspect. Gnag is a cool, calm and relaxed frog. She's very photogenic. Bumpy is a shy, skittish and nervous frog. I've yet to take a photo of her!

However, if given lots of hiding spots and greenery to hide by, she'll feel more relaxed. At their lake, they had large lily pads, plants, grasses, and various greenery to hide by. Is it possible for me to get a kind of greenery that will spread throughout the water, and maybe, help clean it? And if so, could you tell me where to get some? Something like the plants surrounding this frog:

Oh, and that isn't a picture of Gnag! She's much smaller than that.

Ah, in my opinion, Bumpy's is pretty crude, especially in comparison to Gnag's 30 Gallon. I only setup and got the supplies for the tank in about 6 hours. It's definitely a work-in-progress. But for now, my main focus is getting more hiding spots and decoration.

Thanks for all the help and advice, Ashley. I appreciate it