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Thread: Sick Whites Tree Frogs

  1. #1
    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    Hello All,
    I'm sure members have noted the terrible , and quite obvious increase in sick Whites tree frogs!
    There seems to be a pattern as they are all purchased from the same place.
    I, personally, will not take the liberty to 'bash' this place publicly , here on Frog Forum for obvious reasons.

    My reason for posting this message is:

    ANYONE who has purchased a Whites tree frog from large a 'big box' pet retailer
    ( regardless of the chain) REALLY needs to report any death or illness.


    I have called the corporate headquarters of one chain to inquire information regarding:
    1-if they are wild caught or CB
    2- their care prior to being sold

    I will quote some of my conversation:
    The frogs are purchased from "vendors". "Vendors follow all the rules and regulations when supplying the frogs to us"


    I asked the direct question : Are the Whites tree frogs wild caught or CB?
    The answer was: "We do not know"

    They would not give me any additional without my supplying them with my personal information, of which I did not want to share.

    These frogs are hardy --- they should be living long lives
    Something is obviously happening ( ? before of shortly after ) these frogs arrive from a "vendor"?

    Please..don't give -up. Try again if you have recently lost a Whites!
    Hobbyists play a tremendous role ( more than what meets the eye) in keeping frogs.
    Our efforts, information, and experience in a species' day-to day is valuable.

    Please speak up by writing or calling -in a polite and diplomatic way.
    The only way these frogs can be helped is to get to the source of the problem.
    The "big box" store(s) will NOT know there is a problem unless they are informed.
    If they get enough calls and/or letters--- perhaps this information will trickle down and hopefully resolve the problem. Tell them that you expect a reply and intend to escalate your complaint.

    There might be a way in which something could be done , more formally on a state or federal level? You all have emails.
    Gather-round!

    DON'T BUY A WHITES FROM A "BIG BOX"
    Find a breeder! Check for breeders on the vendor lists of reptile/amphibian expos in your near-by community. Support your local 'brick and mortar' small pet stores, and our great( many) on-line breeders/retailers !

    Lynn
    Last edited by flybyferns; February 21st, 2013 at 04:52 PM.
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
    Dendrobates auratus "Pena Blanca"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
    Phyllobates bicolor "Uraba"

    Oophaga pumilio "Black Jeans"
    Oophaga pumilio "Isla Popa"
    Oophaga pumilio "Bastimentos"
    Oophaga pumilio “Mimbitimbi”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Colubre"
    Oophaga pumilio "Red Frog Beach”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Branco"
    Oophaga pumilio “Valle del Rey”
    Oophaga pumilio "BriBri"
    Oophaga pumilio "El Dorado"
    Oophaga pumilio "Cristobal"
    Oophaga pumilio "Rambala"

    Oophaga “Vicentei” (blue)

    Oophaga sylvatica "Paru"
    Oophaga sylvatica "Pata Blanca"
    Oophaga histrionica “Redhead”
    Oophaga histrionica "Blue"
    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
    Ranitomeya vanzolinii

    http://www.fernsfrogs.com
    https://www.facebook.com/ferns.frogs

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  3. #2
    100+ Post Member kueluck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    Thanks Lynn, you got alot farther in the conversation than I did. I tried to find local (within 5 hour drive) and nothing. If by chance I have a male & female I'm considering breeding these so that there will be healthy ones available, at least in NC.
    Rest in peace Rosie 5-31-12
    Rest in peace Rufus 2-7-14
    Rest in peace Morph 8-14-15


  4. #3
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    It's very important that we do inform them. It could perhaps stop the bad influx of either wild caught frogs or ill frogs. This is not only important to whites, but all amphibians. We do not want to spread disease or decline their populations.

    As hobbyists, we do not want to have sick frogs, unless of course, you are rescuing them. But on that note, even us taking them in as rescues, though saving that one or two, still has its disadvantages. They will order more...sick or not.

    It is possible they are becoming ill after received from their buyer. Moving and shipping is stressful. Change of environment, temperature fluctuations, lack of or too high of humidity, lack of food during transit...so many things can stress them and weaken their immune systems. They are also bringing them in very young and small.

    The recent increase in illness from this store or others like them is concerning. Informing them IS helpful in at least making them aware. I'd like to think that someone in those offices does care. And even of they don't, it's a financial loss for them. Remember, they're not only paying for an inexpensive frog, they pay to ship them. Plus, they lose the profit, the supplies used in the tank that house them, the cost of the food, etc.

    The goal is to stop the chain of events of stores purchasing wild caught frogs or sick frogs which can spread disease, if that be so. Maybe they just need to change buyers, maybe warm up the trucks, who knows.

    Be aware that these ill animals may also spread disease to other animals near by, especially if the tech's are not changing their gloves and/or washing their hands between amphibians, etc.

    We want everyone to continue to love the hobby. Amphibians can get sick, all animals can. But be cautious when buying. Protect you and your frogs.

    Lynn has written about buying from vendors. There are some great ones here that are known to sell only captive bred, healthy frogs. Do your research before going to shows or take your smart phones and look them up right at the shows.

    Inspect your frogs...look for nicely hydrated, not too thin or too fat, alert frogs with no skin alterations. Ask the vendors or stores if they will feed them for you to see how they move and eat. They should hop and/or walk effortlessly without twitching or limb lagging. They may not be hungry at the time, but should notice the food and/or lunge at it.

    I hope the recent ailments and losses have not deterred you from having frogs. They are wonderful little creatures and we CAN keep them happy and healthy .

    Another thing worthy of mentioning...be prepared. They are tough little guys, but they are small. Their reserve is not big. They can recover if they become sick, but we need to intervene quickly. Have some remedies and medications on hand and/or a vet available. Lynn has created an excellent post on what to keep to be ready in case. We can heal and save them if we get their extra care started soon. And remember, we are here to help guide and support you .
    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203589094112277&id=1363241107&set =a.1434844115446.2055312.1363241107&source=11&ref= bookmark

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    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    As I was pondering, something came to mind....

    I did also want to mention that we should be cautious in using the Frog Forum name when speaking of specific stores. To mention particular incidences is fine. When calling or talking to representatives of say, Petco, or other stores with complaints, it should be noted that the complaints are coming from each of you as individuals. It would be best if only moderators or John speak for the forum.

    Why? Because the stores can actually use that information against us here. All members here work so hard to keep our wonderful forum running. All acts of harm to amphibians are without a doubt wrong, and we strive to prevent and correct them. Let us as the workers of the forum do the part of protecting the forum, while you guys enjoy the forum. You can say that you've noticed that many of our members here are having the same problems. I'm referring to complaints to them by 'the forum'.

    Remember, as much as we all love our frogs, we are a forum - a social network here to share the enjoyment of frogs and toads, experiences, tips, photos, stories, the good and the bad. We are not a protective agency or act, though we will strive to do so outside of the forum.

    We want you to tell us, so we can help, and we will. We will do so on a professional level in a proactive manner , with a bit of zest behind us .
    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203589094112277&id=1363241107&set =a.1434844115446.2055312.1363241107&source=11&ref= bookmark

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  7. #5
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    P.S.

    That doesn't mean you can't tell us your concerns and complaints here. Speak away! We are here for you. It is only meant in a way of when notifying agencies and stores.
    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203589094112277&id=1363241107&set =a.1434844115446.2055312.1363241107&source=11&ref= bookmark

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    100+ Post Member Bruce's Avatar
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    Default Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    Quote Originally Posted by Heatheranne View Post
    P.S.

    That doesn't mean you can't tell us your concerns and complaints here. Speak away! We are here for you. It is only meant in a way of when notifying agencies and stores.
    As a business major, and I hate to say this, the only thing that perks up a company of this size to take action is a hit to their bottom line. As sad as that may seem since they handle live animals, that is the case. True, if enough people move against a certain product, in this case whites, the company will take action only if this was a big contributed to their bottom line, or they're in trouble with federal laws and such.

    The only way to get the company to notice anything at all minus a few customer complaints is to either publicly smear their name and what is happening, or to organize a massive boycott of whites.
    Honestly, the public dragging would be quicker and more effective, as having a bad PR and brand image can cripple a large company, whereas a boycott would take a few cycles to notice since most of their profit comes from pet supplies, not pets themselves. Plus, the whites and other animals will suffer longer this way

    Many public complaints, investigations, and other similar actions is the way to go. I am NOT saying is should be us, however tipping off an organization like EPA or WWF, especially if they're wild caught, and let them do it for us might be an option. This might also uncover some other dirty pet trade secrets they may have with other small, "disposable" animals (I use this term because sadly, it is how they view these types of pets)

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    100+ Post Member Bruce's Avatar
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    Default Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    Quote Originally Posted by Heatheranne View Post
    As I was pondering, something came to mind....

    I did also want to mention that we should be cautious in using the Frog Forum name when speaking of specific stores. To mention particular incidences is fine. When calling or talking to representatives of say, Petco, or other stores with complaints, it should be noted that the complaints are coming from each of you as individuals. It would be best if only moderators or John speak for the forum.

    Why? Because the stores can actually use that information against us here. All members here work so hard to keep our wonderful forum running. All acts of harm to amphibians are without a doubt wrong, and we strive to prevent and correct them. Let us as the workers of the forum do the part of protecting the forum, while you guys enjoy the forum. You can say that you've noticed that many of our members here are having the same problems. I'm referring to complaints to them by 'the forum'.

    Remember, as much as we all love our frogs, we are a forum - a social network here to share the enjoyment of frogs and toads, experiences, tips, photos, stories, the good and the bad. We are not a protective agency or act, though we will strive to do so outside of the forum.

    We want you to tell us, so we can help, and we will. We will do so on a professional level in a proactive manner , with a bit of zest behind us .
    She couldn't be more right about this. The LAST thing the forum needs is to look down the barrel of a corporate lawsuit or something crazy... Cause that would be our luck! (Well, my luck anyway!)
    Keep the complaints on a personal level. Sheer volume of personal complaints will perk their ears up enough to maybe look into exactly who their vendor are and what exactly they are doing. Because even if it's just a vendor breaking laws/codes, the main company takes a good bit of heat from hiring them and failing at audits and other quality regulation procedures. Not to mention continuing to employ the vendor afterwards.

  10. #8
    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    Not to be redundant; but ......I did mention it is not appropriate to bash publicly.
    post 1:
    I, personally, will not take the liberty to 'bash' this place publicly , here on Frog Forum for obvious reasons.

    Lynn
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
    Dendrobates auratus "Pena Blanca"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
    Phyllobates bicolor "Uraba"

    Oophaga pumilio "Black Jeans"
    Oophaga pumilio "Isla Popa"
    Oophaga pumilio "Bastimentos"
    Oophaga pumilio “Mimbitimbi”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Colubre"
    Oophaga pumilio "Red Frog Beach”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Branco"
    Oophaga pumilio “Valle del Rey”
    Oophaga pumilio "BriBri"
    Oophaga pumilio "El Dorado"
    Oophaga pumilio "Cristobal"
    Oophaga pumilio "Rambala"

    Oophaga “Vicentei” (blue)

    Oophaga sylvatica "Paru"
    Oophaga sylvatica "Pata Blanca"
    Oophaga histrionica “Redhead”
    Oophaga histrionica "Blue"
    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
    Ranitomeya vanzolinii

    http://www.fernsfrogs.com
    https://www.facebook.com/ferns.frogs

  11. #9
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    Yes .
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    100+ Post Member Bolisnide's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    Thanks for this, Lynn....
    I have inquired, many times, and have been told, many times, that the appropriate department will get back with me.
    Still no reply.
    I have been very polite, provided my personal information, to no avail.
    And of course have not mentioned frog forum.
    I'll keep trying!
    1.1.0 White's Treefrog
    1.0.0 Red Eyed Leaf Frog

  13. #11
    100+ Post Member Bolisnide's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    FYI:
    I just got confirmation, the batch of white's is CB...
    Also, the rep I spoke with said he would pass on my experience to the vendor....
    1.1.0 White's Treefrog
    1.0.0 Red Eyed Leaf Frog

  14. #12
    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolisnide View Post
    FYI:
    I just got confirmation, the batch of white's is CB...
    Also, the rep I spoke with said he would pass on my experience to the vendor....
    I'm so glad to hear that someone is talking to you !
    Wondering what you mean by "batch".
    I hope the rep keeps the promise?
    You might follow through with an email or letter to keep a paper trail.
    Keep us posted

    Great detective work! Lynn
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
    Dendrobates auratus "Pena Blanca"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
    Phyllobates bicolor "Uraba"

    Oophaga pumilio "Black Jeans"
    Oophaga pumilio "Isla Popa"
    Oophaga pumilio "Bastimentos"
    Oophaga pumilio “Mimbitimbi”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Colubre"
    Oophaga pumilio "Red Frog Beach”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Branco"
    Oophaga pumilio “Valle del Rey”
    Oophaga pumilio "BriBri"
    Oophaga pumilio "El Dorado"
    Oophaga pumilio "Cristobal"
    Oophaga pumilio "Rambala"

    Oophaga “Vicentei” (blue)

    Oophaga sylvatica "Paru"
    Oophaga sylvatica "Pata Blanca"
    Oophaga histrionica “Redhead”
    Oophaga histrionica "Blue"
    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
    Ranitomeya vanzolinii

    http://www.fernsfrogs.com
    https://www.facebook.com/ferns.frogs

  15. #13
    100+ Post Member Bolisnide's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    Quote Originally Posted by flybyferns View Post
    I'm so glad to hear that someone is talking to you !
    Wondering what you mean by "batch".
    I hope the rep keeps the promise?
    You might follow through with an email or letter to keep a paper trail.
    Keep us posted

    Great detective work! Lynn
    The company buys in 'bulk' then ships out to the stores that want to house and sell them.
    The rep said it's very likely (I could tell he wasn't willing to give up too much info) that the white's sold in NM are from the same 'bulk' purchase as those sold in NC.
    Gail and I have frogs from the same spawn!
    I will follow through with an email to the man I spoke with, and hope he keeps his promise. He genuinely seemed to care, so that's good
    These stores DO NOT want a bad reputation, and I'm sure he understood the importance of letting the vendor know about the problems.
    The rep also didn't seem surprised by my situation, I assume that he got wind of all the problems with the recent batch of white's.
    He offered to take the frog back for a full refund (that'll never happen), but it's not the policy of the store to pay for vet bills that their customers have incurred. Typically the store will take the animal back and resource their own vet care.
    1.1.0 White's Treefrog
    1.0.0 Red Eyed Leaf Frog

  16. #14
    100+ Post Member kueluck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Whites Tree Frogs

    Thanks Lindsey, I'm just happy that mine are on the upswing, hope your's are also.
    Rest in peace Rosie 5-31-12
    Rest in peace Rufus 2-7-14
    Rest in peace Morph 8-14-15


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