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Thread: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

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    Default White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Hey everyone, hopefully somebody here can help us ...

    We noticed one of our white's tree frogs having trouble moving his back legs yesterday. His toes were curling up and his legs seemed really stiff, like it was difficult for him to move them. We took him out and had a look at him, but he looks normal, no discolourations or redness anywhere. We made sure he had plenty water and dusted crickets in the tank and left him so as to not stress him out.

    He slept normally on the glass wall of the tank, toes spread out and legs tucked in, but tonight his legs seemed to be in the same state. I took him out and within a few minutes he was holding himself up and hopping around the table, but when I put him in some lukewarm water with a little honey to try to bathe him, he freaked out, his legs started twitching and he was lying on his tummy. I lifted him out and he seems much happier sitting on the ground, if moving much more slowly than normal.

    We have two white's and there seems to be nothing wrong with the other one, he's constantly hungry and flinging himself towards anything that moves, also very alert and bathing just fine. It's possible, since Ritty (the one we're worried about) has always been a bit littler than Bertie, that he doesn't get quite as much to eat.

    He behaved like this a couple of months ago, we thought it was because it had been too cold for them and after plenty water and food and the heating turned up, he was fine. But maybe that wasn't the problem?

    He ate one cricket yesterday but doesn't seem interested in food today.

    The tank set up is below. Bertie is the brown one on the vine, Ritty the green one on the ground. They've always been these colours. We've had them for eight months so they're 9 - 10 months old.

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    1. 30 gallon enclosure
    2. 2 white's, same age (9 - 10 months) and very close in size
    3. no hygrometer but I'd guess between 60-70%
    4. temperature 70-75F
    5. spring water in two soaking dishes and for misting twice a day
    6. orchid bark for substrate
    7. one plastic vine, two plastic plants, one branch
    8. fed crickets and locusts, alternating every few weeks
    9. calcium the food every second feeding
    10. no lighting within the tank but constant day-night hours are kept
    11. heat mat covering about a quarter of the tank floor
    12. Ritty ate at least one cricket yesterday and was seen hunting and eating three locusts 5 days ago
    13. difficult to monitor who the poop belongs to but there hasn't been as much lately

    17. living in the UK, I would assume the frogs are captive bred, but I don't know for sure


    19. Bertie prefers being handled, every two weeks or so, Ritty more rarely than once a month

    20. low traffic area
    21. Spot check every week or when dirt is obvious. Everything taken out and cleaned with boiling spring water, substrate changed, once every two months. Water change twice every three days.

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    100+ Post Member Bolisnide's Avatar
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Quote Originally Posted by SongsAboutRainbows View Post
    Hey everyone, hopefully somebody here can help us ...

    We noticed one of our white's tree frogs having trouble moving his back legs yesterday. His toes were curling up and his legs seemed really stiff, like it was difficult for him to move them. We took him out and had a look at him, but he looks normal, no discolourations or redness anywhere. We made sure he had plenty water and dusted crickets in the tank and left him so as to not stress him out.

    He slept normally on the glass wall of the tank, toes spread out and legs tucked in, but tonight his legs seemed to be in the same state. I took him out and within a few minutes he was holding himself up and hopping around the table, but when I put him in some lukewarm water with a little honey to try to bathe him, he freaked out, his legs started twitching and he was lying on his tummy. I lifted him out and he seems much happier sitting on the ground, if moving much more slowly than normal.

    We have two white's and there seems to be nothing wrong with the other one, he's constantly hungry and flinging himself towards anything that moves, also very alert and bathing just fine. It's possible, since Ritty (the one we're worried about) has always been a bit littler than Bertie, that he doesn't get quite as much to eat.

    He behaved like this a couple of months ago, we thought it was because it had been too cold for them and after plenty water and food and the heating turned up, he was fine. But maybe that wasn't the problem?

    He ate one cricket yesterday but doesn't seem interested in food today.

    The tank set up is below. Bertie is the brown one on the vine, Ritty the green one on the ground. They've always been these colours. We've had them for eight months so they're 9 - 10 months old.

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    1. 30 gallon enclosure
    2. 2 white's, same age (9 - 10 months) and very close in size
    3. no hygrometer but I'd guess between 60-70%
    4. temperature 70-75F
    5. spring water in two soaking dishes and for misting twice a day
    6. orchid bark for substrate
    7. one plastic vine, two plastic plants, one branch
    8. fed crickets and locusts, alternating every few weeks
    9. calcium the food every second feeding
    10. no lighting within the tank but constant day-night hours are kept
    11. heat mat covering about a quarter of the tank floor
    12. Ritty ate at least one cricket yesterday and was seen hunting and eating three locusts 5 days ago
    13. difficult to monitor who the poop belongs to but there hasn't been as much lately

    17. living in the UK, I would assume the frogs are captive bred, but I don't know for sure


    19. Bertie prefers being handled, every two weeks or so, Ritty more rarely than once a month

    20. low traffic area
    21. Spot check every week or when dirt is obvious. Everything taken out and cleaned with boiling spring water, substrate changed, once every two months. Water change twice every three days.
    I have *no idea* what would cause a frog's hind legs to act this way, sorry.
    But one thing pops up at me that may be an issue?
    Do you bowl feed the crickets and locust? Or do the frogs hunt their own food? The substrate you're using could cause an impaction risk if swallowed. White's are notorious for dive bombing their food, and the substrate must be indigestible if feeding that way. Something like coco fiber or paper towels.
    If you bowl feed, then nevermind...
    Otherwise the behavior could be neurological? I see you're dusting with calcium, so I don't think MBD is an issue...
    Do you have a vet nearby?
    1.1.0 White's Treefrog
    1.0.0 Red Eyed Leaf Frog

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    100+ Post Member Sasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    I agree with Bolisnide on the substrate. Even if you bowl feed a cricket could get loose and there's a chance your frog will ingest the bark. I'm not sure about frogs but I know that with bearded dragons if they have an impaction they could have paralysis in their legs.

    I would quarantine him from the other frog. And dust crickets daily with calcium w/D3. Clean the water and food bowls daily. Find a vet.

    I had a white's tree frog with a similar problem, I would find her with stiff straight legs. By the time I found a vet that would see her she was having seizures and I would find her on her back in her water bowl. Fecal showed parasites and we treated her and her tank mate for that. She was too small to get any blood work from to see see if she had any deficencies. Even though I dusted daily, the vet said that her reflexes and posture looked like MBD. I was convinced it was neurological.



    About your enclosure ....try positioning the vine and the plants up high in the tank. Whites tree frogs like to climb and be up high.
    4.1.0White's Green Tree Frog (OliveR, Shrek, Skitter,Frankie,Storm)
    0.3.0 Cats (Isis, Cleo, Sasha)
    1.1.0 Bearded Dragon (Dexter,my girl)(Luci, my boy)

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    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Sorry
    Patsy and Lindsey have given you excellent advice.
    You do what to switch substrate..........to cocoa fiber instead.

    Please let us know :
    WATER! - what water are you using- It must always be de- chlorinated
    EXACTLY- which calcium product are you using.


    This sound like it could be symptoms of MBD- (even know you have been dusting )
    It could be as a result of some food competition?
    I wood remove this frog and put it into into own little 'hospital' tank
    A seperate take will enable him to eat well and you will be ablt to do treatment soak, monitor food intak and poop.
    Feed him well, and daily for a while-- make sure his feeder is not too large
    Do the pedi alternated w/ honey soaks for a couple days.
    Do the homey soak first so the frog can rinse in the pedi soak.

    In the link below ... toward the bottom of the post information about a rescue product for calcium deficiency:
    You might get an order placed for this --just to have on hand. Please read all about if first.
    You might seriously consider taking this little guy to a herp vet !
    Fluker's Liquid Calcium

    Instructions for the soaks/quarantine are here:
    http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-supplies.html

    Note:
    I see you have your 'country' as Scotland.
    In the US plain Pedialyte is a electrolyte replacement used sick children and infants.
    Here it is found in any supermarket or pharmacy. I'm not sure of the Brand name of a product like this if you live live Scotland.
    It's likely there thought, it's made by Abbott Pharmaceuticals.

    Keep in touch-Lynn
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
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    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
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    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
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    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Hello. I wanted to comment to tell you that when I read this, I agree 100% with both Bolisnide and Sasha.

    I would recommend bowl feeding and would change the substrate to coconut fiber. Avoid the husk. Change your substrate monthly if you do not have a false bottom.

    It's very important to get a hygrometer to keep track of humidity.

    What brand of calcium are you using? Does it have vitamin D3 in it?

    I would put the little one in a hospital tank with just paper towel flooring, changed daily, a water bowl rinsed and refilled daily, and most importantly use the calcium with vitamin D3 every day to see if the leg movement improves. I would also pick up some Herptivite or Repashy multivitamin and dust one day a week with it. It could be another deficiency. Cover 3 sides of the tank to make him feel safe. This allows you to monitor his intake and pooping, and if it's an infection it helps to prevent spread. Monitor his feces also for color and consistency.

    Please keep us posted.

    Great answers Bolisnide and Sasha!!!
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Hey everyone,

    Thank you so much for your quick replies and loads of advice

    To answer your questions, no we don't bowl feed, we let them chase the food themselves, so it is possible he's swallowed some of the bark. We were told the bark would be fine for them but the more I read posts on here the more I doubt about some pet stores... anyway, coco fibre is on its way now.
    We're using mountain spring water that's bottled at source about 20 miles away.
    The calcium powder is Nutrobal, it does include D3 and a bunch of other vitamins and minerals in a long list.

    I got some UK-Pedialyte (it's called Dioralyte here) and we'll quarantine him and give him honey and pedi baths like you recommended.

    Should the hospital tank also be vertical with a lot of height, or would a lower one be ok too?

    There is an exotics vet about an hour away, I'll give them a phone tomorrow after we see how he does tonight.

    He's sleeping at the bottom of one of the tank walls and seems to be happy enough right now, we'll get a better idea when he wakes up later.

    Thanks again!

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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Update: Ritty sat in the pedi bath for 10 minutes, did a huge poop (I have never been more proud!) and was climbing around the quarantine tank within minutes!! He looked a lot skinnier after that poop but he ate two dusted smallish locusts and filled out again. He really seems a lot happier. We're not out of the woods yet but he was scaling the walls like a pro - it's amazing, such a huge difference from earlier!

    The poop was watery and had lots of little brown flakes in it, it was also pretty large with respect to its owner. Not sure what that means, but I figure some of you guys might?

    Thank you everybody so much for all the advice. I would have been panicking and probably overhandling him on my own and I wouldn't even have thought of using pedialyte for frogs.

    I've cleaned out the soaking dish and refilled it and I'll give him soaks for the next days and make sure he eats and poops and looks ok.

    I've been up through the night here with him so it's bedtime now but thank you, thank you!

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    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Hi Heather,
    Hang in there.You're on the mend.
    Just keep an eye on the poop. ( that is not in the water)
    If it's runny - you will need to bring (a poop ) a fecal sample to the vet to have it tested for parasites. If this were to be positive; quick fix! You simply dust feeders w/ a medication once a week for a month or so.

    Keep us posted.
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
    Dendrobates auratus "Pena Blanca"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
    Phyllobates bicolor "Uraba"

    Oophaga pumilio "Black Jeans"
    Oophaga pumilio "Isla Popa"
    Oophaga pumilio "Bastimentos"
    Oophaga pumilio “Mimbitimbi”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Colubre"
    Oophaga pumilio "Red Frog Beach”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Branco"
    Oophaga pumilio “Valle del Rey”
    Oophaga pumilio "BriBri"
    Oophaga pumilio "El Dorado"
    Oophaga pumilio "Cristobal"
    Oophaga pumilio "Rambala"

    Oophaga “Vicentei” (blue)

    Oophaga sylvatica "Paru"
    Oophaga sylvatica "Pata Blanca"
    Oophaga histrionica “Redhead”
    Oophaga histrionica "Blue"
    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
    Ranitomeya vanzolinii

    http://www.fernsfrogs.com
    https://www.facebook.com/ferns.frogs

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    100+ Post Member Sasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    That's good news Heather, keep us updated!
    4.1.0White's Green Tree Frog (OliveR, Shrek, Skitter,Frankie,Storm)
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Heather, Glad to hear things are looking better. Whites are very big eaters and with that comes big poops. There are a couple times when I was spot cleaning I would have swore that an animal 3 times their size was in there. Keep up the good work and follow Lynn & Heathers advice, they are 2 of the smartest froggin ladies I know!

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    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Great to hear!

    See of you can catch a poo sample. It sounds as though a nice panacur treatment would do him well. It's easy to tolerated and they feel so much better ridding their bellies of the infectious agents. Persistent runny poo is usually a sign needing treatment.
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Everything's still looking good on night two. He took another pedi bath and ate some more dusted locusts. Legs seem normal - he was hopping around and climbing up my arm. Only problem tonight was that I couldn't get him to sit still in the soak for 15 minutes!

    Changed to using paper towels as the substrate until the coco fibre arrives, it should give me a chance to spot poop easily so I can keep an eye on that too. And no risk of them shoving it into their mouths! Good to know treatment could be so easy. I'll give the vet a phone to see if he'll do a fecal, and price etc, even if it does look ok it's better to be safe

    Glad we have the advice of wonderful froggers on our side.

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    100+ Post Member Sasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Quote Originally Posted by SongsAboutRainbows View Post
    Everything's still looking good on night two. He took another pedi bath and ate some more dusted locusts. Legs seem normal - he was hopping around and climbing up my arm. Only problem tonight was that I couldn't get him to sit still in the soak for 15 minutes!
    I use a 4 cup plastic Gladware bowl. Poke air holes in the top (from the underside of the lid up). Fill it with enough water to cover the frog to his chin. His feet will get wet and he can't stick to the plastic sides of the bowl, he will just keep sliding into the water. After a few minutes of trying to climb the side of the bowl he should tire out sit in the water. Just keep an eye on him so that he doesn't stick his head under the water.
    4.1.0White's Green Tree Frog (OliveR, Shrek, Skitter,Frankie,Storm)
    0.3.0 Cats (Isis, Cleo, Sasha)
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Happy to read the good news!!
    Rest in peace Rosie 5-31-12
    Rest in peace Rufus 2-7-14
    Rest in peace Morph 8-14-15


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    Default White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Great job!!! How are his legs moving when he climbs? Does he have full motion of his legs? Any more feet curling?

    I'm so glad to hear he's doing better .

    I'd still do a fecal lab test to be on the safe side.
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Thanks, Sasha, for the bathing tip! We had been compromising with him and getting him to sit half in, half out.

    No more feet curling, he's climbing fine - moving all of his legs and able to hold on, just looking slightly weaker than usual. I'm hoping this is a result of having been not well and it may take a few more days before he's back to full normality. He's been stalking locusts and eating them fine too. Keeping up with the pedi and honey baths.

    Got a huge poop this morning, will take it to the vet tomorrow hopefully to see if there is an underlying tummy problem.

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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    This is all good news! Glad the bath tip worked. I just recently figured that out with my Shrek, he had a very tiny prolapse and I gave him a honey bath. He was NOT happy! Let us know what the vet says tomorrow.
    4.1.0White's Green Tree Frog (OliveR, Shrek, Skitter,Frankie,Storm)
    0.3.0 Cats (Isis, Cleo, Sasha)
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    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Glad to hear . Please keep us posted.
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    Default Re: White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Everything still lookin good, didn't get a chance to get over to the vet today but I called and they'll do a fecal for £10 so I will deliver the offending poop to them tomorrow morning Let you guys know when the results come back

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    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

    Great! We'll be waiting to hear.
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