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Thread: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

  1. #1
    100+ Post Member DeeDub's Avatar
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    Default Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    Well I always feel fortunate that my Husbandry keeps my frogs healthy and happy. Guess not, I've got a sick Cornuta. This morning I found my little Cornuta (Green) upside down in his enclosure. He's been off food for about a week and has just seemed off. He's always ate well, not quite as good as Purple (the other cornuta), but hasn't grown much and over the last two weeks, seems to be having trouble striking food. He would always bite what I put in front of him, but the last week, he does a little "perk up"....almost like a strike, but doesn't open his mouth. Anyway, I'll answer the questions. BTW, he's got the 'lean' to one side this morning. I noticed that last night as well, but thought he was just sitting wierd in his hole.

    1. one side of a 5 gallon glass tank. (I already got his counterpart out of the other side)
    2. 2 Cornuta (not cohabitated, they are separated by plexiglass)
    3. 68-75% RH
    4. 80 deg. F
    5. Dechlorinated tap water (Repti-safe)
    6. Coir
    7. One shallow water dish. Four tiny Pathos (never had fertilizers),
    8. Small Dubia, Crickets, Nightcrawler peices.
    9. Miner-all 2 times per week. Vit-all once a week.
    10. Zilla Mini dome with infrared Halogen.
    11. Zoomed Hydro/therm temp Humidity controller
    12. Jan 17 2013, ate 2 nightcrawler peices.
    13. Yes, I found poop 2 days ago.
    14. I'll post a pic below.
    15. 2 mo? Mike any ideas?
    16. 1.5 Mo
    17. CB
    18. Small Dubia, Crickets, Nightcrawler peices....Pacman food as a treat once every two weeks or so.
    19. Never handled.
    20. No traffic area.
    21. Daily water changes, spot clean turds as needed (when I see em), Sub change once a month (unless I notice it needs it sooner).








    My other Cornuta that I got at the same time is about 4 times the size. I assumed it was a female and this little guy is male. Maybe. Anyway. Any help is appreciated.
    Thanks
    Dustin
    ........................................
    Thanks
    DW

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  3. #2
    100+ Post Member DeeDub's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    One more thing. My Peppermint is sick as well. He was toxing out. Also developed a hole in one hind leg (skin just gone). He isn't out of the woods, but is doing better. Been treating with Melafix, and Malachite green. He is retaining shed, and overall just sick. Off color, off food etc. Maybe had some bad feeders is what I'm thinking. Both went off food around the same three days.
    ........................................
    Thanks
    DW

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    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    sorry to hear why your peppermint was toxing out? it shouldn't be related to feeders

    does your cornuta have any skin lesions? how did poop look like? how he was eating before and how did his poop looked like before? you said he wasn't really growing much.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    100+ Post Member DeeDub's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    Poop was runny on the cornuta. No skin lesions. Just went and checked him. He's dead. He looked like he had air bubbles in his stomach (his belly skin is translucent apparently. I could see the bubbles. He always ate good, but not as often as the other Cornuta.

    I probably let the peppermints substrate go too long (3 weeks).

    The only other thing I can think of is I.added some spring tails to all my cages about two weeks ago.
    ........................................
    Thanks
    DW

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    Moderator GrifTheGreat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDub View Post
    Poop was runny on the cornuta. No skin lesions. Just went and checked him. He's dead. He looked like he had air bubbles in his stomach (his belly skin is translucent apparently. I could see the bubbles. He always ate good, but not as often as the other Cornuta.

    I probably let the peppermints substrate go too long (3 weeks).

    The only other thing I can think of is I.added some spring tails to all my cages about two weeks ago.
    Sounds like your Cornuta had either parasites or a bacterial infection. The lean is usually a sign of pnemonia too. Fluid will build up in one of the lungs causing them to lean, but it could have been that the Green was lame(weak genetics). If you can I would have a Necropsy done on the Cornuta for an exact cause. Just a side note on Cornuta. They tend to like higher humidity. Usually around 80% to 85% and occationally higher.

    On the Peppermint more than likely something was in the substrate causeing the skin to rot. Could have even been maggots, but they are usually visible. There is a disease they can get that causes the skin to rot or fall off, but I cannot remember the name or what causes it. If you can swab the frogs skin and seal the swab in bag and have a Vet test it. Something is seriously wrong here.


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    100+ Post Member DeeDub's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    Could a fogger lead to pneumonia? I'll call the vet see with the test or necropsy would be price wise. I'm not gonna spend; a bunch of money on a dead frog....that's just me. I see the merit in it for future preventative measures, but I'm just not going to spend money to have the vet tell me they don't know what was wrong. herp vets here are not very good.
    ........................................
    Thanks
    DW

  8. #7
    ornate510
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    How do yoh get rid of pneumonia or the fluid build up?.

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    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    DeeDub, so sorry for your loss
    runny stool + eating but not growing much + gas sounds like protozoa infection to me. I would do fecal exam on the other one too if plexiglass that separates tanks is not sealed.

    fogger could lead to pneumonia if humidity is too high and not enough of airflow. Usually that goes in combination with big fluctuations of temps and humidity.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    Deedub, did your pepermint have any contact with cornuta and/or any of your other frogs? I mean through water/tongs/anything? how old he is and was he ok before?
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    100+ Post Member DeeDub's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    I'll get a fecal done on everyone. Already have it lined out for next Mon. I need to collect some turds though.

    Yes I've used the same tongs. The plexi was not sealed in. The sub was pretty smelly.

    I'm pretty sure this was my failure. It sucks.

    The peppermint was healthy when I got it. He lost a little weight due to stress, but gained it back and was doing well. He is improving. His color is back. I'll keep him on paper towels in a deli cup for a few more days. When I change his water it is usually pretty smelly.
    ........................................
    Thanks
    DW

  12. #11
    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    not necessarily your failure, on a contrary it sounds as you were doing everything right and I imagine how bad you feel, been there too and it sucks.
    look if I were you I would quarantine everyone who was in contact, clean and disinfect everything. keep very close eye on the other cornuta. smelly in combination with above symptoms sounds very much as pathogenic protozoa. when you take fecal samples make sure they all fresh. Peppermint might have that too, but sometimes protozoa just weakens immunity and then it looks like bacterial infection on a skin + slightly runny and smelly poop. By smelly I mean excessively smelly if you know what i mean.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Moderator GrifTheGreat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    Protozoa infections are normally caused by exposure to dirty stagnant water for ampbibs, but if the substrate was over saturated then they can begin there. Lija has pretty much covered everything on the protozoa, but usually blood is in the runny stool once the frog has the full blown infection. Worms can also cause these symotoms so a parasite is most definitely the cause. A Flagyl/Panacur solution is great at killing protozoa and parasitic worms. Your Vet may percribe this after a fecal exam if the results prove positive.

    Skin falling off though is not a normal symptom of these infections, but dry skin is which could be why the frog is having trouble shedding and can damage the sensitive skin beneath. This could explain the damaged or missing skin.


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    100+ Post Member DVirginiana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    Don't beat yourself up over it. At least you recognized there was a problem and caught it before it went through the rest of your animals. Once bacterial/protozoan populations get started in substrate (since you could smell it that's probably what it was) they can multiply really quickly in wet environments like that.

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    100+ Post Member DeeDub's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    The cornuta sub was only two weeks old. The peppermint was three. The cornuta sub smelled like sulfur when I changed it today. When I mentioned the water stinking I am referring to the water in the peppermint's temp dish. It really stinks. I change it twice a day for The last week.

    I don't know what happened, but every one is quarantined with sterile temp enclosures. I've cleaned out everyone's tanks and replaced with fresh eco earth.

    There was no dry skin. Over saturation was a possibility in the peppermints cage, but the cornuta cage was perfect. No chance anyone was too dry.
    ........................................
    Thanks
    DW

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    Moderator GrifTheGreat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDub View Post
    The cornuta sub was only two weeks old. The peppermint was three. The cornuta sub smelled like sulfur when I changed it today. When I mentioned the water stinking I am referring to the water in the peppermint's temp dish. It really stinks. I change it twice a day for The last week.

    I don't know what happened, but every one is quarantined with sterile temp enclosures. I've cleaned out everyone's tanks and replaced with fresh eco earth.

    There was no dry skin. Over saturation was a possibility in the peppermints cage, but the cornuta cage was perfect. No chance anyone was too dry.
    I was not saying you kept them dry. A symptom of worms is dry skin. If infected no matter how moist the environment the frog will have dry tacky skin. Causes them to have difficulty shedding.

    I'll bet Lija is right and it is Protozoa.

    The sulfer smell is an infection. Overly saturated substrate mixed with the amonia from their urine will have a very stagnant almost sulfer smell to it. Do you toss(mix up) your frogs substrate regularly?


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    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    Deedub, all frogs have protozoa in small quantities, no matter how clean they kept, they don't no anything bad, they just are. it is very rare when they have patogenic one, but it happens and I bet you got that one with your cornuta. Some frogs are carriers of those patogenic ones, meaning they look ok, eat, a bit less a bit picky, you won't notice anything other then slightly runny smelly poop, you would say something is off but you can't really put your finger on it and since it is off just a bit you think it is normal, however over time protozoa will slowly impact immunity opening a gate for secondary infection. How long it'll take depends on a individual frog, husbandry, amount of stress, some may go for years without any clear symptoms, some will pass away very fast even kept in ideal conditions.
    I know how frustrating it feels when you know protozoa most known as dirty environment problem, however patogenic protozoa infection itself has nothing to do with it. I bet your cornuta had it when you got her, pepermint got infected at your home from her and the other cornuta is probably more resistant to the infection.
    when you get fecal samples tested make sure vet has experience with it. but i think it would be safe to get everyone treated either way.

    I was very lucky to have cat with protozoa infection, it took me 2 years to figure that out and 2 weeks to treat it and i had protozoa problem in frogs too, one of them ( pacman) didn't make it despite treatment, the other one is pixie, who got infected from the pacman, a male who at 10 months is just 4,5" long he is growing very slowly now and eating, he will be small but fine. but it took me about 4 month to get my pixie better, for pacman it was 8 months battle that we lost. so your story sounds very much familiar to me (((
    to add - believe me they were kept in spot on environment all the time and stress free as possible, feeding with same tongs was the only connecting thing, so I'm telling you, don't beat yourself up over this, just get everyone treated and get more tongs, i have 5 now
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    100+ Post Member DeeDub's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    Hey, sorry I wasn't offended or anything. Just trying to clarify. I should use more emoticons...haha.

    I appreciate the help. Here's a problem. The Peppermint isn't pooping solids. Can I still get a fecal? Maybe they just swab him?

    Oh ya, the sub tossing..... on the Cornutas I did not. I was pretty careful to not disturb them unnecessarily. With the peppermint I have. I toss the pyxie and Rhino every couple days.
    ........................................
    Thanks
    DW

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    Moderator GrifTheGreat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDub View Post
    Hey, sorry I wasn't offended or anything. Just trying to clarify. I should use more emoticons...haha.

    I appreciate the help. Here's a problem. The Peppermint isn't pooping solids. Can I still get a fecal? Maybe they just swab him?

    Oh ya, the sub tossing..... on the Cornutas I did not. I was pretty careful to not disturb them unnecessarily. With the peppermint I have. I toss the pyxie and Rhino every couple days.
    With the Cornuta you have go ahead and toss the substrate once or twice a week. Small tubs need substrate changed no less than twice a month.

    Scoop up the runny stool and take it in. If its in the water dish you should be able to take whatever settles at the bottom of the dish in and even some of the water with it.


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    Moderator Lija's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    vets have those fancy fecal sample jars, you can ask for some. it is easy to scoop stuff with those.
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    100+ Post Member DeeDub's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Cornuta...Neurological?

    I'm expecting turds from the ornata and cornuta any time now. Hopefully before Mon. I already plan to take my peppermint in to check him out....btw, he had a seizure today when I changed water. If he doesn't improve in the next week (has more seizures, heads back down hill...) I'm just going to put him down. Doesn't need to suffer IMO. Hopefully he'll continue to improve. Other than the seizure, he's looking better color wise. The hole in his leg is looking a little better.
    ........................................
    Thanks
    DW

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