Dubia colony questions

[fish4all]

I have been researching them a lot and found a lot of different information on them. I ran across this site and a very well written article Jeff and decided this was the place to find reliable information.

I know the basics and maybe a little more. Housing, lighting, heat, food and moisture. I understand most of it but I can not claim any real knowledge because I have never tried to raise them, yet.

Water crystals, egg crate, sufficient size bin, heat one side to keep colony around 85f, light not needed.

I have chorus frogs from my state that were caught in the wild as both froglets and poles. They have grown a lot and have outgrown fruit flies for the most part although the smaller ones will eat them a little still. I have switched to crickets but I hate them, and I have bred them before and it was a smelly, noisy, and often just awful experience. I have 7 frogs, they currently eat about 3 dozen small to medium crickets a week. I know the roaches will take a while to be high enough numbers to feed off regularly as I am likely getting 75 mixed nymphs to start out.

My main question is, before I get the nymphs, is am I thinking in the right direction for feeding them so they provide good nutrition to my frogs? Here is my plan:
Medium quality dog food, brewers yeast, baby cereal, veggies, fruits grain cereal. I currently culture my fruit flies on brewers yeast, instant potatoes and oatmeal baby cereal with awesome results. And my frogs are beautiful and healthy. Can that same mixture be used for the roaches or do I need a lot more variety as I listed? Both for the roaches health and my frogs health.

I just want a healthy colony of roaches that I can feed nymphs off every couple of days as a main food source. I will supplement with houseflies, bottle flies and other feeder insects but the roaches will be the main food supply. Do I seem to have the information I need or am I missing something key that will hurt my frogs instead of help them or even hurt my chances of having a successful breeding colony?

Sorry for asking so much but I often find myself at a standstill when it comes to new challenges before I ask and have thought about things a lot before hitting a forum for an answer. It also takes a while for me to find one I think has the information and members who will help me with good information I need to make sure I do things right.

Some general info on my frogs, 7 of them, range in size from 1 to 1.5 inches nose to tail. I think I have 3 females and 4 males but I haven't been able to reliably confirm this. I know that adult roaches will be too large for them but the nymphs should make great feeders for them up to maybe 1/2 inch if I am lucky.

And I guess the key question, is this species of roach the right choice for my frogs and their future needs?

Again, sorry for the lengthy first post but if I don't ask when I am thinking about it I will forget. Picture to follow if I can get quality ones. In another post of course.

[JeffreH]

Welcome to the forum fish4all! Lucky for you, I am fond of lengthy posts = )

The diet for the roaches that you listed sounds excellent, both for the benefit of the frogs and for the benefit of the roaches. I like to think of it this way: The reproductive success for roaches isn't so dependent on variety and quality of food... they will thrive so long as temperature, moisture, and space demands are met even on a poor quality gutload. The variety and quality of the food you offer to the insects is going to more directly benefit the frog. You could probably raise an excellent colony of roaches purely on some dog food and lettuce - but by offering a nice variety and nutritious foods (say Collard Greens instead of Lettuce) you will be able to pack more goodies into the feeder for the frog.

I would HIGHLY recommend getting a started culture or feeding a few roaches right off the bat to your frogs to ensure they will accept them readily. Blaptica dubia can be a hit or miss with some species... particuarly because they seem to have an uncanny ability to sense danger and will often bunker down and sit still for some lengths of time. They are excellent feeders and highly relished by those that will take them, but I've found that some nocturnal, arboreal species rely heavily on movement to encourage a feeding response.

Perhaps because you have a smaller species, you may consider a couple of different species in addition to dubia. Blatta (Shelfordella) lateralis... the Red Runners/Turkistan roaches are a favorite amonst my Rhacodactylus geckos where I have a few animals that will turn their noses up to B. dubia. Turkistan roaches stay smaller and max out about the size of an adult cricket. They also do not fly or climb, but are a little smellier than B. dubia (don't let this discourage you, I assure you they are nothing like crickets). The main kicker is that they lay egg cases. This makes them more prolific...capable of cranking out 1-2 ooths monthly. The downside is these ooths can require a bit of tender loving care in their humidity needs. If this is an option you'd like to consider, I would be more than happy to go into specifics.

Lobster roaches are another smaller and prolific option, also attaining a size similar to that of an adult cricket. The major downside to these guys is they can climb glass and smoother surfaces (and they too are smellier for a roach). Lobsters are probably one of the most prolific feeder roaches on the market and give live birth, making them virtualy effortless to culture if you can get past the climbing.

Given the size of your frogs - I think these three species will be most reasonable and most readily attainable for you. So in a nutshell: Dubia are great, but make sure your herps will take them. Be somewhat persistent; my friend's milk frog took a few tries before he actually ate one and from that point forward he began eating them like candy. If you want smaller and more prolific roaches that move around a bit more and attract pickier feeders, go with lats or lobsters = ) It seems these two species are softer-bodied as well, which may influence feeding preferences in some species. Nutritionally speaking though, all roaches are virtually the same in composition.

[fish4all]

Thank you, that makes me feel like I have actually done enough research to possibly make a colony work.

I have fed the frogs crickets, fruit flies, house flies, bottle flies and wood lice (potato bugs) and they seem to go after anything that moves. I think size will be a more determining factor than type of bug. The only thing I have found is they will grab a larger bug but drop it or spit it out if they think it is too large. I do plan on having other feeders as I stated just to make sure that alll the frogs eat. I know 3 of the frogs will not hesitate to eat a Dubia, the others, if I make sure I have flies they will get fed until I can get them to take the Dubia, if they ever do. Or whatever roach if I decide to go with another one.

Lobsters are probably not gonna happen because I need to keep them confined or my wife will exterminate them. Is going to be hard enough to make sure I can keep the Dubia safe and zero escapes for the wife to freak out over.

The runners sound like an interesting option. Being able to hatch the ootheca separately might be a big advantage for feeding. Being able to take the ooths and put them in separate containers would be a nice way to have the perfect size when it is feeding time. And a lot less sorting. The only drawback is the only ootheca I have ever hatched was a mantis ooth so zero experience there. Any information specific to them would be helpful. I can see having 3-5 jars set up for hatching the ooths already.

And if I am understanding this right, gut loading has nothing to do with the health of of the feeder. It is simply a way to load the stomach of the feeder to get other stuff into our pets that they wouldn't get from the bug itself. Here I thought it was all about the health of the feeder. Guess I should have put two and two together by now, after years of raising feeder insects of some sort or another. I doubt I will mess with gut loading, sounds a lot easier just to feed them a proper diet that also can benefit the pets instead of messing with special needs right before feeding them off.

Information on hatching the runner ooths would be helpful, maybe i will go with them instead of the Dubia simply for size reasons. I doubt my frogs would eat a full sized cricket so Dubia may be too big too fast to be a viable feeder.

[JeffreH]

You are absolutely correct about the gutloading - while I think providing a quality diet throughout the insect's life may increase overall nutrional benefits slightly, its probably insignificant and the real show stopper is the gut contents. Insects have very specific needs and their body doesn't store things like calcium very readily, hence why gutloading prior to feeding and dusting is so important. I highly doubt a high quality dog food vs. a poor quality food will make that much of a difference in cockroach mortality and reproductive fitness. In fact, I know of fellow hobbyists who have kept dozens of species for years on a diet of only dog food and apples... so anything else you throw in there is really just benefitting your herps with a nutrional boost. This is why I think using a variety of items and quality feed is important, as the micro/macronutrients found in plant matter can really only be obtained from the insects that a frog consumes.

As for the Red Runners - It sounds like you've got a pretty solid gameplan. I've always wanted to separate ooths and rear them in the manner you are suggesting, but never really had the time or need. It would certainly increase the productively and make things far more organized...especially for sorting as you've noted.

The main key for Red Runner ooths is to prevent them from drying out. To accomplish this, I place a 1-2" layer of peat moss and coir (Eco-Earth) on the bottom of the bin...making this one of the only feeder species I use substrate for. The substrate holds moisture better and prevents the near direct contact with the heating element I use under the bottom of the bin (Flexwatt Heat Tape). I also keep a constant and heft supply of water crystals available at all times in the bin, which helps to promote some extra humidity. I still get a few ooths here and there that dry out using this method, but produce so many tiny nymphs it isn't worth it to separate them out for some TLC.... but I primarily feed adult and large nymph lats.

If I were you trying the separation method with jars - I would run the bottom of the bin bare as you would for B. dubia. Stack egg flats or drink carriers vertically so all ooths and frass fall to the bottom, and every couple of days check in and remove any new ooths you see. This can easily be accomplished by simply tilting the bin, as the ooths will just roll off to the side of interest. Then, set up a jar with some moist coir/peat moss/soil of choice that is slightly damp, but not dripping or soaking wet when squeezed. The ooths should be just fine laying right on top of the soil, but the main purpose of the substrate is to create a slightly humid environment in the jar. For this reason, you may opt to place something dry between the substrate and ooths as a barrier just in case too much direct moisture contact has a negative effect as well (again, I've not actually employed this method, just speculating). The major pitfall will be the need for heat for the ooths as well...so you may either want to A) Set up a new baby bin or heat the incubation jars specifically or B) Place an incubation jar inside of the main roach colony bin in such a way that other roaches cannot access it. The jar should be ventilated, but probably not completely open since we want to keep the substrate from drying out too rapidly.

If you ever cultured crickets - think of the lateralis ooths like cricket eggs. They need some heat, and they can't be kept too dry. On the flip side, too much moisture or sitting in a saturated soil may also prove fatal to the egg case. You'll just need to play around with finding a happy median. I promise it isn't rocket science though ; )

Let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on anything further!

[fish4all]

What is the absolute low end to have either species breed, runners and Dubia? At what temp do they die both high and low?

The heat source, is it meant to keep the entire colony at 85-90 or just the egg crates where they stay? Can the food and water area be slightly cooler or will the heat mat/tape keep the whole bin pretty much the same temp?

What temperature do you keep you colonies Jeff? And how many adult runners or Dubia would I need to have approximately 400-500 nymphs a month to feed to my frogs? Feeding supplemented with flies, wood lice and other stuff. I have tried to calculate this and have come up with 25 female Dubia and 20 female runners with extras from these numbers if they are breeding properly.

Getting closer, hopefully I will have it all in hand before getting the little buggers.

I am actually thinking of 2 bins with either species, adults breeding in one and nymphs growing or hatching in the other. Should be plenty enough room in two 10 gallon bins for more than enough to feed my little chorus frogs. And a backup is always a good idea. Fruit flies taught me that lesson. That and two 10 gallon bins lets me put the bins in a larger tote so that there are no escapees so the Mrs. doesn't freak out on me.

[unkempt1]

I wanna help too! Sorry, don't mean to butt in but I enjoy talking about roaches just as much as Jeff does.

What is the absolute low end to have either species breed, runners and Dubia? At what temp do they die both high and low?

I can only speak for Dubia. I'd keep it around 90-95 to guarantee consistent breeding, but they can breed more slowly in the 85 degree range. They won't start dying until you get below the 45 degree range, but are pretty sluggish and probably don't eat very well at temps that low.

The heat source, is it meant to keep the entire colony at 85-90 or just the egg crates where they stay? Can the food and water area be slightly cooler or will the heat mat/tape keep the whole bin pretty much the same temp?

You should still have a cool side, although technically if they get too warm you we see them chilling out at the tops of the crates, which is fine. My setup has the food/water on the cool side, which is what I recommend. Warm side should be the crate side.

What temperature do you keep you colonies Jeff? And how many adult runners or Dubia would I need to have approximately 400-500 nymphs a month to feed to my frogs?

i hope I can answer too. I keep mine between 90-95, usually closer to 90 degrees. I've heard that temps above 95 degrees can kill adult males, but haven't personally experienced this because my heat pad doesn't get that hot. Growth-wise, each female will give birth to 20-30 babies each month.

I would recommend the 2-bin setup, it's what I use. That way you can feed your breeders higher protein stuff, and your feeders the stuff your frog would benefit from. I have a bearded dragon and pacman, so I feed my feeders collard/mustard/turnip greens, prickly pears, and very rarely fruits like apples and mangos. I feed my breeder colony a roach chow I make myself that includes dog food and plant proteins. I recommend feeding them more than just fruits and veggies, otherwise the males will kill each other. I have experienced this with my colony when I just gave them fruits/veggies when I had only one bin and fed directly from my colony. Having two bins also has the advantage of not needing to bother your feeders too often, which believe me the less you mess with them the more effectively they will grow.

[JeffreH]

Yay for Roach enthusiasts! = )

What temperature do you keep you colonies Jeff? And how many adult runners or Dubia would I need to have approximately 400-500 nymphs a month to feed to my frogs? Feeding supplemented with flies, wood lice and other stuff. I have tried to calculate this and have come up with 25 female Dubia and 20 female runners with extras from these numbers if they are breeding properly.

You calculations are correct. As unkempt said, you can expect about 20 nymphs per month from each adult female dubia and closer to 25-30 per month per female lateralis. These are pretty conservative values, and in optimal conditions you may see slightly more productivity (especially from the lats).

The flaw to this calculation and biggest issue for most new roach keepers is not accounting for nymphs that need to be fed and for nymphs that need to be held back to reach adulthood in order to replace current breeders. Thankfully, females will live and reproduce for many months after reaching maturity...upwards to a year or more. But maturity can take several months for either species... and factoring in "feeder size nymphs" is also important. For example, while you may produce 500 nymphs monthly from 25 females, they will all be newborn nymphs that you may only be able to feed a limited amount of herps until they gain some size. I would personally wait a couple of months AFTER you have your adult females so that a nice mix of nymphs is available as replacements to the colony and as feeders. You can never have too many roaches, and having too large a colony is always better than having too few and having to backtrack. I always shot for 1.5x-2x the recommended females when starting my colonies to err in the side of caution.

Cockroaches will thermoregulate much like a reptile or amphibian as unkempt suggested - I personally keep my heat tape under the entire bin and allow for an upwards gradient with egg flats. The roaches will travel toward the bottom for warmth and to the top to cool down. This is probably the most practical heating method for a large quantity of roaches in a single bin as you can completely pack the bin with egg flats. More egg flats = more surface area. More surface area means larger population per bin. The added surface area s particularly important for species who rather dislike crowding (i.e. Eublaberus sp.)

I have all of my bins set so that the inside bottom surface of the bin reads ~90. This is true for most of my feeder species, B. dubia and the lateralis included. Insect's function purely on enzyme kinetics driven by the environment....warmer temps mean faster growth to a certain point, but too much heat can have adverse effects. Given their natural range, I would imagine B. dubia would have an optimal temperature range of about 85-90 degrees F... but this is purely speculation from average temperatures in the neotropics where they reside in nature.

[fish4all]

Unkept, all advice is wanted for me. The more people that say it the more that I believe it when they back each other up. That and sometimes something will not work for me that will for others and having options to try is always a good thing. Fruit flies taught me this, adding active yeast crashed my cultures after just 2 weeks. I use brewers yeast now and have never had more production form longer lasting cultures.

I figure that my frogs will eat the roaches up to about 3/4 inch at most. Once a crickets gets an ovipositor longer than about 1/8 inch they are pretty much too big for all except my largest frog. I think the hard part may be finding what to do with the extra adults when I don't feed off enough at a small enough size. Good problem to have I would think.

I will see how big the heat pad is and decide how I will try and heat the bins. Might leave a cool side for food and water with crates on the heated side in both.

What is the smallest bin you would say would work for my needs? I have two 24 quart ones I was thinking of using. Really straight up ad down walls with good flat lids and easy to modify for mesh. I can put them in a larger bin to keep them contained. Do you think that a second bin will ruin a temperature gradient and make the entire smaller bins an equal temperature or is this unlikely?

[unkempt1]

Those should work fine. I think I use a 10 gallon sterilite tub and it works no problem. You still will want to put duct tape around the sides, because the smaller nymphs will climb the walls. Another thing: are the walls see-through or a solid color?

Do you think that a second bin will ruin a temperature gradient and make the entire smaller bins an equal temperature or is this unlikely?

I think I understand the question. Do you mean do you think the heating pad will spread the temps out too far? I don't think it will, but I will say that the heat transfer from the pad to the tub is pretty terrible.

[fish4all]

The tubs are clear, I may try using them and putting them in the dark or a solid bin or finding some the same size or there about. I could tape them up to make them opaque or do something like that.

I was thinking the 2 smaller bins in a large one would make the temperature equal throughout the smaller ones but that doesn't like it would be a problem.

As for Duct tape, I would think that would make it easier, don't I need a clear slick tape around the rim to prevent them climbing too high? Or is there a clear slick duct tape out there?

[unkempt1]

One thing I have noticed is that roaches hate light more than sounds. It really disrupts them, which means less time breeding, eating, and birthing (if they are bothered too much they won't give birth, and may event 'abort' the egg casing). It's not easy, but you really have to leave them alone. If you plan on keeping it in a dark place like a closet you won't have any issues with a clear tub. However, if that isn't feasible, the bin I got was only $6 at Walmart and is a solid color.

As far as tape, you should be able to use any type of duct tape (I used mustache duct tape ). You're going to need duct tape anyways when you rig the top to have a screen on it to allow ventilation. The clear bins are slicker than the opaque ones, so they may not be able to climb them. But I can confirm that the opaque ones have enough of a rough surface for really small nymphs to climb. They can't climb the duct tape though. I can't count the number of times I've opened the bin, only to see a couple babies trying their hardest to get past the tape.

[fish4all]

I use hot glue to put the screens on mine. Will get a picture if I can find my camera after chasing the frogs around their tank last night.

[JeffreH]

Hey unkempt - I've had a similar dilemma with newborn nymphs climbing in bins - I think the problem is actually with specific brands. Rubbermaid for example makes these "Roughneck" totes that have the SLIGHTEST texture on the inside. The newborn dubia can climb these bins no problem. I currently use a brand that is opaque that was purchased from Home Depot years ago and have never had another climbing incident with the smoother plastic (the brand name eludes me...Home...something...). Sterilite makes a quality smooth plastic bin, but their bins tend to be clear. The texture is almost untangible, however, so shopping for the right bin can be a challenge. Be sure to compare and use a clear standard sterilte tote as a reference for comparison when feeling the inside sides of the bin. This puzzled me for the longest time when I was finding dozens of newborn dubia dead outside of the bins, lol.

[fish4all]

Jeff, babies dead outside the bin? Sounds like they die pretty quick then if they find their way out?

[Heatheranne]

I use a 10 gallon aquarium tank with a screened lid and infared heat bulb and mine breed faster than I can keep up with. Very easy.

[JeffreH]

Jeff, babies dead outside the bin? Sounds like they die pretty quick then if they find their way out?

I assume most of the escapees hide somewhere out of sight and ultimately die from lack of food and water. Plus the basement where my roach racks reside sits around 66 degrees F. The dead babies I find outside the bin are the result of the nymphs finding their way into the cobwebs and spider webs I've allowed to remain untouched down there... roach + web = quick death haha

It isn't that uncommon to see a random roach or two escape every now and then for me, but seeing a couple of dozen newborn dubias trapped in a single web was a pretty big red flag that something was wrong in my setup ; )

[unkempt1]

Jeff, babies dead outside the bin? Sounds like they die pretty quick then if they find their way out?

Oh no, trust me it's the other way around. You will see that they are almost impossible to kill. One time I saw a baby nymph on its back next to my frog's cage. It wasn't moving, so I assumed it escaped and died. Well, the doorbell rang and I forgot about it. I came back to feed my frog three days later and saw it again, still on it's back. I went to pick it up to throw away and it was still alive.

[fish4all]

Okay unkept, that DOESN'T make me feel any better with my wife's aversion to roaches. We just won't tell her that story, lol.

I like the idea of the 10 gallon tank, I could ever take a razor blade and trim the silicone around the top edges so the nymphs have a harder time climbing. Line it with the slippery tape and should keep them in place for the most part.

Heather, where do you keep the tank? Dark closet, in a dark box or do yours seem to care about being in the dark all the time?

[JeffreH]

I hope this doesn't get taken the wrong way, just wanted to give my experience using glass for snakes and roaches...Glass aquaria are expensive, don't hold heat and humidity well, and are very heavy to move around. Unless you use a lamp, it can be difficult to attain the temperatures you want using a UTH or heat tape depending on ambient room temps. I prefer heat tape because it is much more cost effective and energy efficient (60 watt light bulb puts energy into light and heat, while a 10watt strip of heat tape can get to 110-115 degrees on surface). Aquaria are OK for a colony or two - but become immensely impractical for anything more.

Not saying they won't work - obviously Heather is having excellent success = )

There are a variety of ways to keep these guys and everyone has their own methods that work - you'll just have to decide whats best for you. As mentioned earlier, they aren't rocket science to keep. If you can keep crickets alive, you can keep roaches...the only major difference is heating requirement.

Also....

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!! = D

[Heatheranne]

You won't need to trim the corners. Mine have never gotten out. They can't climb the glass. So long as you keep the egg carton low in the tank, there's nothing else to grab onto. If you stack it too high they'll grab the screen and walk upside down on it. The heat lamp weighs down the lid. I keep them in my side room on the floor. None of the sides are covered at all, just lots of egg carton stacked sideways. I keep my heat at about 88 to 90 degrees.

I purchased 200 last year in the fall. It took them about a month to start reproducing fast. This fall I sold 150 and gave away another 200 and I still have probably around 400 + in there. There are always new babies and nicely molted ones. I feed out the nice squooshy molted ones .

I honestly just feed them once a week. I make them a nice fruit salad usually with oranges and apples in a circle on a kids plastic plate with water gel as the center and I make another plate with powdered cricket food and Cheerios. Occasionally I give them other foods like carrots, bananas, or potatoes. They love oranges. I slice them in circles and all they leave is the rind.

I clean out the frass (feces and shed skins) every few months.

That's it . No escapees, very little mess, and lots of babies.