malaysian horned frog!

[Starforce2]

well, research isn't for me. I think if I went through the above I'd get frustrated and simply give up on keeping the species. Curious to know how much it is costing you to treat the disease or whatever is going on, if you don't mind saying.

[Lija]

Curious to know how much it is costing you to treat the disease or whatever is going on, if you don't mind saying.

not much since i don't need to pay for vet services or pay minimum if lab is involved but the point is - I got frog species knowing it might be difficult to keep and having not much information of captive care available. They are awesome unique frogs, interesting to watch, but apparently there are things what need to be further investigated in order to ensure success of keeping them in captivity.

[Starforce2]

well that certainly makes it easier. Are you a biologist of some kind? Zoo employee?

[Adoptedtwins]

Very nice pictures! I like a naturalistic set up, too.

[Heatheranne]

Hi Lija, I'm sorry to hear you lost 2 . I'll be interested to hear the pathology. They really are unique frogs.

[Lija]

thank you Heather! I'm sorry too, but I learned so much and am going to learn some more. as of now it is clear that WC nasutas need special approach not the same as with other WC frogs.
what would you like to hear? I can post pics and describe history and results of my research. necropsy is scheduled to be done at university some time this spring, but based on a history i'm not expecting much informative from it.

[Heatheranne]

I'll listen to any education you've got...tell me all if you like .

[Starforce2]

I'd love to own these too. Hopefully I can be prepared. Currently fighting to save a bearded dragon....this kind of stuff aint fun.

[Lija]

will do complete update with pictures, how to and care sheet to best of my knowledge i just want to test a few things. or may be I'll better put down what i already know and will update with any new info. will do in a few days will have time then.

[Lija]

I'd love to own these too. Hopefully I can be prepared. Currently fighting to save a bearded dragon....this kind of stuff aint fun.

yep not fun, agree, but it is a huge rewarding experience when you do save or heal somebody.

[Heatheranne]

will do complete update with pictures, how to and care sheet to best of my knowledge i just want to test a few things. or may be I'll better put down what i already know and will update with any new info. will do in a few days will have time then.

Sounds great .

[Lija]

I'll start with picture update this is my healthy one, that is a male I think, but haven't heard him calling.

[Lija]

that is how the other remaining frog looked like 7-1o days after 2 weeks after symptoms first started to show.

that is he now after treatment, almost 2 weeks after first pics were taken, it is a male and calling like crazy despite whatever is happening to him.



that is his hospital set up ( tall plastic container, all walls and bottom covered with paper towels, partially covered with paper towel, 5.0 UVB present during a day for 12 hours.


just pics for now, will do a description later.

[Starforce2]

I wonder if CB of the species will have the same issue. ANy ideas what it is? Fungus, virus, bacteria?

[Lija]

those wounds are bacterial infection that doesn't respond to topical antibiotics. it was treated with systemic broad spectrum ones and Flamazine directly on a wounds 2xday.

so that is how it all happened. as I said it was a very educational and sad experience for me, i see my fault in some of the things I've done ( or hadn't done), you live , you suck it up and learn from your mistakes. The reason I'm writing this is to help future owners of nasutas to not to experience what I had to go thorough, as well as I mentioned the work is still in progress
- i got 2 frogs initially, wounds appeared within 2 days, seizures after 2 days after, frog died the next day after seizures started. the other frog was ok.
- I got one more frog from same pet store at about same time as the first one died, that one had wounds on its knees, so was treated and quarantined for 1 month. it that pet store nasutas were kept in small enclosures in a groups of 2 or 3.
- a few weeks after i got third frog, same species appeared in the other pet store, so i got those 2 as well, they were very healthy and were kept in separate enclosures in that pet store, i put them together and added other 2 after quarantine was over.
- one of the frogs started to show wounds on a horns shortly after they all were housed together, it didn't responded to topical treatment and died shortly after seizures started. all frogs lived in temporary enclosure ( 24x18) at that time.
- shortly after that one died I moved the remaining company to a bigger tank ( 36x18) with waterfall, pond and false bottom
- everyone seemed to be very happy, eating like pigs for a a few months. A month or so ago another frog got wounded horns, was quarantined and treated with Flamazine alone, looked to be better a bit, but not by much, i had to leave for a few days and a person who looked after forgot to mist hospital set up for one or 2 days, when i got home a frog was sitting on dry papertowels and looked quite dry, wounds were not that bad. I did complete dehydration therapy, but a frog didn't recover and died within few days, wounds during this period were going worse.
- at about same time one more frog started to show same symptoms, wounds on the horns, at that point world known and one of the best amphibian vets in north america was involved, the result you see above. currently recovered frog is still in his hospital set up, but will be transferred to his home probably today, and will be housed separately from healthy one for 3-4 month.

to be continued with possible causes.... gotta go now

[Heatheranne]

Wow! That's a lot to go through.

[Lija]

there is theory that vet I was talking about came up with, but it goes completely against what long term keeps and breeders are saying and in truth I'm kinda doubt it too to some extend, but who knows.... he is guru of amph. medicine.....

WC nasuta frogs were exposed to all kinds of poisonous plants and chemicals, they are shipped together but have been collected from different places and if a frog from one location is adapted to one type of poison, a frog from different location is not and if house together one frog will tox another one out, secondary bacterial infection will kick in. He is saying if housed together WC nasutas will tox each other out until one will be left perfectly healthy, the bigger the tank the slower the process is going to be and that is what was happening with mine.

well, it would of course explain what was happening in here, BUT every single breeder/keeper I talked to, say the same- they were keeping their nasutas in groups and they seemed to be happy and lived long term. They explain situation by stress and the fact that stressed out nasutas are rubbing their horns thus infection. That would explain the situation too as well as it was treated well with antibiotics, but why then one frog is perfectly healthy, while others are not, they lived in exact same conditions.

I think they both are right, most likely WC frogs are in fact toxing each other out and are susceptible to stress more then any other frog I ever heard about.

what I'm going to do now is to test theory of toxing out, the remaining frogs will be housed separately for 3-4 month and if both healthy, happy and well I'm get them together again. if theory is true when is there a period of time a frog are not toxic anymore, logically thinking if they secret whatever they were exposed to before in time toxins should be out.

my gut feeling says, if you get WC nasuta, treat it as a sick right away, quarantine it in a tall hospital set up with fully covered all 4 sides of enclosure provide hides, etc, do full anti parasitic treatment and watch for any signs of stress. Tall set up is needed because they can jump really high, mine jumped out of 18" high enclosure easily.

[Starforce2]

I think I'll wait till a CB breeder surfaces, avoid these issues, hopefully. Be interesting to see if after a few months they are toxin free like darts are. Since you have access to labs, can't you test the frogs secretions an find out if they are indeed secreting different poisons with a gcms?

[Mentat]

...WC nasuta frogs were exposed to all kinds of poisonous plants and chemicals, they are shipped together but have been collected from different places and if a frog from one location is adapted to one type of poison, a frog from different location is not and if house together one frog will tox another one out, secondary bacterial infection will kick in. He is saying if housed together WC nasutas will tox each other out until one will be left perfectly healthy, the bigger the tank the slower the process is going to be and that is what was happening with mine.

well, it would of course explain what was happening in here, BUT every single breeder/keeper I talked to, say the same- they were keeping their nasutas in groups and they seemed to be happy and lived long term. They explain situation by stress and the fact that stressed out nasutas are rubbing their horns thus infection. That would explain the situation too as well as it was treated well with antibiotics, but why then one frog is perfectly healthy, while others are not, they lived in exact same conditions.

I think they both are right, most likely WC frogs are in fact toxing each other out and are susceptible to stress more then any other frog I ever heard about.

what I'm going to do now is to test theory of toxing out, the remaining frogs will be housed separately for 3-4 month and if both healthy, happy and well I'm get them together again. if theory is true when is there a period of time a frog are not toxic anymore, logically thinking if they secret whatever they were exposed to before in time toxins should be out.

my gut feeling says, if you get WC nasuta, treat it as a sick right away, quarantine it in a tall hospital set up with fully covered all 4 sides of enclosure provide hides, etc, do full anti parasitic treatment and watch for any signs of stress. Tall set up is needed because they can jump really high, mine jumped out of 18" high enclosure easily.

Interesting theory Lija! Question for you is why 3-4 months isolation? Did Vet suggested that? I'm asking because obviously these frogs are very social, so imagine the quarantine period should be as long as needed and not any more. No idea how long frog detox takes; but organisms I know of (fish, invertebrates) detox in around 30 days. Did try to find out how long does it take for wild Poison Dart Frogs to loose toxicity once removed from wild insect diet; but came out empty handed. Good luck .

[Lija]

3-4 months isolation is my idea, i want to exclude possibility of any possible toxins. as it looks right now and based of what breeders are saying that these frogs are social but nobody noted that kept alone would affect them negatively in any way. I didn't know darts and toxicity, i really need to do over to darts section. i have to find this out
as well both are on panacur right now that i should have done LONG ago. one of those you live you learn.