Pacman food "Just add water"

[never quit]

Hi Lija: Yep, it would be interesting!.....Especially from the standpoint that our perceptions sometimes are not even close to reality. Or, as I tell some of the people in work: "You need to base your opinions on facts, and don't base your facts on opinions."
So, after work today I went to the bait store and got a "half tube" of crickets. I think it was 36. They all looked about the same size, large adults, but what I did was put the crickets in four ziplock bags. Each bag has somewhere around 9. The idea being the average weight of each bag will give me a more accurate weight/cricket than just weighing the one bag with all the crickets, because of rounding the vaules. Actually, an important part is the standard deviation of the samples. We can then determine how variable the weight of the crickets are.
The nightcrawlers will be a different issue....I think the size is quite variable. But let's see what the numbers say.

And Thanks for your interest
Lloyd

[never quit]

Hi Grif: Thanks for getting back to me. I appreciate the information on who feeds what....I'll get in touch with Jim. I've got five frogs, and they're only about 3" max, so maybe I'll wait a bit before trying some hornworms....Besides that, those guys cost anywhere from $ .90 to $ 1.50. Of course a 4" caterpillar might have a lot of mass.

[never quit]

Yes, you're EXACTLY correct. As I stated in an earlier reply "Now the issue becomes which food is most effective?" Which is what I was talking about. In thinking about this in work today, I thought of creating a coefficient ( I would need you smart guys and gals who know more about this to guide me). Then, on the analysis of the food item you could, for example, put a coefficient of 2 in front of the protein, and a (-.5) in front of the fat content. then, the food item with the highest sum values would be the best to feed. Then we need to figure out the cost.
Okay, it's getting late for me....I'm up at 3:30 for a good run, then into work.
Thanks again for your interest and feedback
Lloyd

[never quit]

Sorry for the delay in getting back, but had a few problems in work, and we all know how that goes. Anyway, one problem I had was trying to upload the Excel file. Well, it seems the forum only likes pictures. So, I'll just do a copy and paste. The file is pretty simple, but if you use the nutrition book and enter the feeder animal's analysis, it makes for a very easy to use database. If you want a copy PM me and I'll forward it to you. I only looked at crickets and nightcrawlers. All weights are in grams. The ultimate number, the COST/CRICKET(NIGHTCRAWLER)/GRAM is in dry weight. So while the crickets are about $ .49/gram and nightcrawlers about $ .28/gram that's still higher than the "just add water" pacman food at $ .12/gram. When my frogs get bigger and I can get hornworms and maybe roaches, I'd like to compare them.
I haven't done much with the nutritional analysis, but that would take a little more time. It seems that roaches and nightcrawlers are the de facto standard for feeding frogs, thus their nutritional analysis should be the benchmark. But that's a different story.
Below are the three food items with the weight and cost.
If anyone feels something is wrong with the numbers or you don't agree with the data, please reply.
Thanks
Lloyd

	Moisture%
cricket	69.2
nightcrawler	85

Pacman Food
total wt.	Cost	cost/gm
113.4	$14.00	$0.12

Nightcrawlers
n	total wt.	tare	net wt.	wt/worm	total cost	cost/worm	dry wt/worm	cost/worm/gm
1	8.21	3.94	4.27	4.27	$2.96	$0.15	0.6405	$0.23
1	8.17	3.94	4.23	4.23		$0.15	0.6345	$0.23
1	6.77	3.94	2.83	2.83		$0.15	0.4245	$0.35
1	6.50	3.94	2.56	2.56		$0.15	0.384	$0.39
1	7.85	3.94	3.91	3.91		$0.15	0.5865	$0.25
1	8.60	3.94	4.66	4.66		$0.15	0.699	$0.21
1	6.75	3.94	2.81	2.81		$0.15	0.4215	$0.35
1	8.11	3.94	4.17	4.17		$0.15	0.6255	$0.24

Cricktets
n	total wt.	tare	net wt.	wt/cricket	total cost	cost/cricket	dry wt/cricket	cost/cricket/gm
9	8.1	5.23	2.87	0.3189	$1.95	$0.05	0.0982178	$0.55
10	8.87	5.23	3.64	0.3640	$1.95		0.112112	$0.48
8	8.15	5.23	2.92	0.3650	$1.95		0.11242	$0.48
9	8.83	5.23	3.60	0.4000	$1.95		0.1232	$0.44

[Lija]

wow! nicely done! that's really interesting and what is even more interesting that pacman food is cheaper, well, with shipping to canada probably it is not the case ( I got it for 2 x12$ + 15$ shipping).
I just got my order of pacman food from samuraj and can tell this - my baby ( 2') is full with only tiny amount of it ( about 6-8 little spoons that are included, which make about 6 times less volume then 1.5 nightcrawler a day he was eating before. think he will be eating what i got for very long, I'll give him nightcrawlers too once in a while, but I have a feeling when he'll be done with those 2 pacs I'll order 5 more since same shipping applies to up to 5 packages. I really really like this food now so easy to feed, but will probably add Ca and multivitamins to it.

[Bruce]

That's all i needed to see, looks like I'll be using pacman food as a staple from now on!

[Namio]

Very interesting Lloyd! Also 15 cents for one nightcrawler is very cheap. In northern California the cheapest large nightcrawler I can get is from Walmat at $3.53 for 20 worms, which comes to an average of 18 cents per worm.

[GrifTheGreat]

Very interesting Lloyd! Also 15 cents for one nightcrawler is very cheap. In northern California the cheapest large nightcrawler I can get is from Walmat at $3.53 for 20 worms, which comes to an average of 18 cents per worm.

You're right Namio and some places charge near $5.00 for 12 night crawlers which is substantially more off worm.

[never quit]

Hi Lija: Thank you for your comment...As you said, it's easy to feed....The one problem I had was getting the correct consistency. It seems it doesn't take near the amount of water I thought it would.
As far as adding Ca and vitamins, I think going easy is best since it's already got some in it, but the package doesn't say how much....I've emailed them twice and never heard back. When I purchase more powder online I'll ask them.
Ah, $ 15 dollars is kind of expensive.....I'll let you know what it costs to get it here in Arkansas.

Thanks
Lloyd

[never quit]

Hi Bruce: Well, I just don't know............About using this as a staple food....I would like to see some data or necropsy results.....

Thanks
Lloyd

[never quit]

Hi Grif: Yeah, when nightcrawlers get to $ 3.53 for 20, that makes you want to look at alternative food sources.....Especially since, in my experience anyway, there's big worms and there's small worms in that same 20 worm container.....THAT'S expensive.....But then, if it's for my frogs, is food cost an issue? Seeing them healthy and happy is worth every penny of it.


Thanks
Lloyd

[Lija]

I used to get big box of nightcrawlers from those guys Canadian Nightcrawlers - Premium Live Bait Worms for Fishing the only problem that you need to have extra fridge and the box is taking all space on the shelf ( about 25'x25'x25') it is good when you have a lot of frogs to feed. but now I'm not sure if I'll go for 500 again with pacman food around

Lloyd - it says on a package 1 little spoon - 3 drops of water which is about right.

[never quit]

Hi Lija: Well, ordered two of the 4 oz. packs of food. After reading your horror story about paying $ 15.00 for shipping I was wondering...But the shipping cost to AR is $ 4.95. So that wasn't too bad. I'd like to ask them WHY they charge more than 3 times the shipping rate for Canada.
Oh, and thanks for the info on adding 3 drops of water to a spoonful of food. It seems to be there isn't much room for error...If it gets too wet, then you have to add more food, which may be wasted. So now I add a small amount of water, stir, add water stir.........until the proper consistency is reached.


On another subject "Impaction"......I've read about this on several sites...What I remember reading is something like "Don't use moss or it'll cause impaction." I never read of someone saying their frog did have an intestinal impaction from the moss.
I have a box of Zoomed's Terrarium Moss, and I WAS using it until I read those comments. It made sense to me, since I don't think there's much moss growing in the frog's natural habitat. So I wrote Zoomed and and told them what I've read and asked if they have any evidence to support their product is safe. They wrote back and said they use it, then on their site, zoomed.com, there's an article about impaction. Another question I have for them is they sell the Terrarium Moss and also a Frog Moss(?). So what's the difference?
I do like the idea of the moss, since it's easier to work with, looks more natural and you can control the moisture pretty easy.
When I get all the answers I'll put them out there.

Thanks
Lloyd

[never quit]

Hi: Okay, Noticed on another frog forum, fatfrogs, a member who obviously knows a lot about amphibian nutrition posted an answer to my question about the "just add water" pacman food. It's pretty interesting, and leaves the reader with even more questions.
Here's the URL: Fat Frogs Forums :: View topic - "just add water" pacman food

Also, Zoomed told me the difference between their Terrarium Moss and Frog Moss is the Frog Moss will "come back to life." Here's the URL to the impaction article: http://zoomed.com/Library/Care%20She.../Impaction.pdf



Thanks
Lloyd

[GrifTheGreat]

Hi: Okay, Noticed on another frog forum, fatfrogs, a member who obviously knows a lot about amphibian nutrition posted an answer to my question about the "just add water" pacman food. It's pretty interesting, and leaves the reader with even more questions.
Here's the URL: Fat Frogs Forums :: View topic - "just add water" pacman food

Also, Zoomed told me the difference between their Terrarium Moss and Frog Moss is the Frog Moss will "come back to life." Here's the URL to the impaction article: http://zoomed.com/Library/Care%20She.../Impaction.pdf



Thanks
Lloyd

I believe Ren has you covered on the answers you seek.

As for the T moss and Frog Moss, well the frog moss is sold in clumps and is in a dormant form. Once it is moistened it will begin to grow again basically re-animating the moss, but if dug up and broke apart and the frog accidentally eats a chunk the frog WILL become impacted due to them not being able to break down plant matter. The same goes for the long strands of Sphagnum moss sold as Terrarium Moss. The long strands will tangle together inside the frog's intestines along with the fecal matter causing a blockage. They can't claim that its 100% safe because its NOT. Its not fun having to extract a long strand of moss from your frog's Cloaca believe me. Luckily it wasn't a very long piece I removed. Ill never use it again.

Coconut Fiber is one of the safest substrates and I use it for all of my frogs. Mind you that it is also not 100% safe. I've found some debris within the substrate that would make you worry about using it. Eco Earth Coco Fiber is more natural than other substrates in terms of natural/safety. If eaten accidentally it almost always passes through the frog harmlessly and easily UNLESS one of those debris was missed while you sift through the soil. I've found stones larger than a quarter as well as plastic tarp strands, chunks of plastic, various sized stones, long leaves of grass, various plant seeds, Easter grass, bark, wood chips, etc.

There is no 100% safe substrate. All have some potential hazard that could occur. It is up to us to prevent these occurrences by say diligently sifting through the Eco Earth before using it for your frogs,

[never quit]

I believe Ren has you covered on the answers you seek.

As for the T moss and Frog Moss, well the frog moss is sold in clumps and is in a dormant form. Once it is moistened it will begin to grow again basically re-animating the moss, but if dug up and broke apart and the frog accidentally eats a chunk the frog WILL become impacted due to them not being able to break down plant matter. The same goes for the long strands of Sphagnum moss sold as Terrarium Moss. The long strands will tangle together inside the frog's intestines along with the fecal matter causing a blockage. They can't claim that its 100% safe because its NOT. Its not fun having to extract a long strand of moss from your frog's Cloaca believe me. Luckily it wasn't a very long piece I removed. Ill never use it again.

Coconut Fiber is one of the safest substrates and I use it for all of my frogs. Mind you that it is also not 100% safe. I've found some debris within the substrate that would make you worry about using it. Eco Earth Coco Fiber is more natural than other substrates in terms of natural/safety. If eaten accidentally it almost always passes through the frog harmlessly and easily UNLESS one of those debris was missed while you sift through the soil. I've found stones larger than a quarter as well as plastic tarp strands, chunks of plastic, various sized stones, long leaves of grass, various plant seeds, Easter grass, bark, wood chips, etc.

There is no 100% safe substrate. All have some potential hazard that could occur. It is up to us to prevent these occurrences by say diligently sifting through the Eco Earth before using it for your frogs,

Hey Gfif: Yeah, I think Ren did a pretty comprehensive analysis of the food. But, I've got two packs on the way, so I want to use them. I've emailed that Japanese guy that sells the stuff several times but never heard from him. I asked him if he has any evidence that his food will sustain frogs for the long term.
With regard to the moss, that wasn't a very accurate statement "come back to life"....as you said it's just dormant until mixed with water. That Eco Earth Fiber seems to be okay, as of now I haven't found any foreign material in it that would cause a problem, but that doesn't mean you should stop checking....I do want to checkout WalMart's potting soil and try to find some without any fertilizers. From what I've read the potting soil isn't biologically inert like the coconut fibers so the potting soil should help with keeping fungus spores at bay. And, I wonder if the potting soil has other bacteria in it that would be helpful for the frog. Sort of like us drinking bottled water compared to tap water. There's a lot of micro nutrients in tap water that we need.

Thanks, have a good weekend
Lloyd

[GrifTheGreat]

Hey Gfif: Yeah, I think Ren did a pretty comprehensive analysis of the food. But, I've got two packs on the way, so I want to use them. I've emailed that Japanese guy that sells the stuff several times but never heard from him. I asked him if he has any evidence that his food will sustain frogs for the long term.
With regard to the moss, that wasn't a very accurate statement "come back to life"....as you said it's just dormant until mixed with water. That Eco Earth Fiber seems to be okay, as of now I haven't found any foreign material in it that would cause a problem, but that doesn't mean you should stop checking....I do want to checkout WalMart's potting soil and try to find some without any fertilizers. From what I've read the potting soil isn't biologically inert like the coconut fibers so the potting soil should help with keeping fungus spores at bay. And, I wonder if the potting soil has other bacteria in it that would be helpful for the frog. Sort of like us drinking bottled water compared to tap water. There's a lot of micro nutrients in tap water that we need.

Thanks, have a good weekend
Lloyd

Coconut Fiber isn't that inert. Plants can grow very well in it for quite some time and it is mold and fungal resistant. The potting soil isn't that great for Pacman Frogs. Firstly they produce more waste than a self sustaining Vivarium can neutralize. So Ammonia builds up causing the frog to Tox Out. They urinate A LOT! Thus causing a buildup of ammonia. Live plants, isopods, bacteria just can't work fast enough to break down the amount of waste these species produce and since they live in the soil that they urinate and so forth into it becomes a serious problem. Many people have used the Organic topsoil with not so exemplary results. Frankly anything that is designed for plants I don't trust to be completely chemical free. Especially if its processed in the same plant as the chemically fertilized soils. They also don't hold moisture as well which is critical for the frogs health.

Edit; Yusuke is pretty hush hush on anything that has to do with the keeping and breeding of the frogs he sells. I believe all the frogs he sells are raised from hatching to adulthood on Pacman Food and I don't believe you'll get many details about that process either. They're very secretive about their business.

[never quit]

Coconut Fiber isn't that inert. Plants can grow very well in it for quite some time and it is mold and fungal resistant. The potting soil isn't that great for Pacman Frogs. Firstly they produce more waste than a self sustaining Vivarium can neutralize. So Ammonia builds up causing the frog to Tox Out. They urinate A LOT! Thus causing a buildup of ammonia. Live plants, isopods, bacteria just can't work fast enough to break down the amount of waste these species produce and since they live in the soil that they urinate and so forth into it becomes a serious problem. Many people have used the Organic topsoil with not so exemplary results. Frankly anything that is designed for plants I don't trust to be completely chemical free. Especially if its processed in the same plant as the chemically fertilized soils. They also don't hold moisture as well which is critical for the frogs health.

Edit; Yusuke is pretty hush hush on anything that has to do with the keeping and breeding of the frogs he sells. I believe all the frogs he sells are raised from hatching to adulthood on Pacman Food and I don't believe you'll get many details about that process either. They're very secretive about their business.

That's an interesting comment about the coconut fiber. So, how often should you replace the substrate in a frog's tank? Are there any clues that a change is necessary, like the smell of ammonia, or the frog sits in his water dish rather than bury in the coconut fiber?
That's a good point about the top soil being chemically free....When you're only paying $2 a bag you can't expect too much quality control in the processing of the product. Based on what you say, I think it's safer to stay with the fiber.

Yusuke, I assume that's the Japanese guy I met at the Daytona Expo, seemed to be willing to answer the questions I had about the food. Unfortunately, I only had a few questions. He did have a paperback about the husbandry of pacman frogs but it was in Japanese!....And talking to him was tough....His English is rough, at best.
Anyway, if you would share some detailed information on the substrate maintenance I'd certainly appreciate it.

Thanks again
Lloyd

[GrifTheGreat]

That's an interesting comment about the coconut fiber. So, how often should you replace the substrate in a frog's tank? Are there any clues that a change is necessary, like the smell of ammonia, or the frog sits in his water dish rather than bury in the coconut fiber?
That's a good point about the top soil being chemically free....When you're only paying $2 a bag you can't expect too much quality control in the processing of the product. Based on what you say, I think it's safer to stay with the fiber.

Yusuke, I assume that's the Japanese guy I met at the Daytona Expo, seemed to be willing to answer the questions I had about the food. Unfortunately, I only had a few questions. He did have a paperback about the husbandry of pacman frogs but it was in Japanese!....And talking to him was tough....His English is rough, at best.
Anyway, if you would share some detailed information on the substrate maintenance I'd certainly appreciate it.

Thanks again
Lloyd

The substrate should be changed no less than once a month and no more than every 2 weeks unless for some reason the soil has become contaminated or overly saturated. These frogs need moist soil not mud. Muddy substrate can lead to many complications with the frog's health. Ammonia from their urine will be absorbed into the frog since they get most of their water from the moist soil they burrow into. Muddy substrate can cause the frog to get leg issues. When they burrow and they're sunk in the muddy soil the glass on the bottom will be slick and they can't grip it. Not having the ability to grip the bottom and no resistance against their legs can cause the muscles to atrophyne and the frog can possibly lose the ability to use its legs over time. This is why an all water setup is bad along with them just sitting in their own waste.

Pacman Frogs produce a substantial amount of waste. Mostly Urine as I stated and they substrate when still in good condition should smell earthy like fresh soil just dug up. It will begin to have a musty near mildew like smell or as you mentioned foul from ammonia. These are the signs of the substrate reaching the end of its shelf life and needing to be changed. Also as you mentioned if the frog avoids the substrate by either not burrowing and trying to get out of the terrarium or staying in the water all the time, BUT staying in the water all the time and having runny feces is a sign of a Protozoa infection that can be caused by overly dirty conditions like old fouled substrate and water.

There are ways to prolong the life of the substrate like creating a false bottom thus creating a drainage layer beneath the substrate. This allows for the frog's urine to drain with excess water into the drainage layer. This prolongs the life of the soil by at least another 10 to 15 days. You also need to toss the substrate at least once every week or two. This allows the soil to breathe and help prevent fungal and bacterial growth further. It also keeps the frog from sitting in urine by mixing and spreading the urine throughout the still clean fresh soil making a much lesser concentration in one spot.

These are creatures of habit. They pick favorite burrowing spots and will stay there for extended periods of time. Any and every time they leave their burrow is a good time to check for feces and mix the soil up in that area. Removing feces as soon as they're seen also helps keep the substrate maintain its life and keeps fungal growth and bacteria at bay. Since these frogs live in hot damp conditions the growth of fungi and bacteria is always a threat so in taking the actions I mentioned above it can help prevent the growth of these threats and prolong substrate life.

I hope that this information. gives you some if not all the details you need.

[never quit]

The substrate should be changed no less than once a month and no more than every 2 weeks unless for some reason the soil has become contaminated or overly saturated. These frogs need moist soil not mud. Muddy substrate can lead to many complications with the frog's health. Ammonia from their urine will be absorbed into the frog since they get most of their water from the moist soil they burrow into. Muddy substrate can cause the frog to get leg issues. When they burrow and they're sunk in the muddy soil the glass on the bottom will be slick and they can't grip it. Not having the ability to grip the bottom and no resistance against their legs can cause the muscles to atrophyne and the frog can possibly lose the ability to use its legs over time. This is why an all water setup is bad along with them just sitting in their own waste.

Pacman Frogs produce a substantial amount of waste. Mostly Urine as I stated and they substrate when still in good condition should smell earthy like fresh soil just dug up. It will begin to have a musty near mildew like smell or as you mentioned foul from ammonia. These are the signs of the substrate reaching the end of its shelf life and needing to be changed. Also as you mentioned if the frog avoids the substrate by either not burrowing and trying to get out of the terrarium or staying in the water all the time, BUT staying in the water all the time and having runny feces is a sign of a Protozoa infection that can be caused by overly dirty conditions like old fouled substrate and water.

There are ways to prolong the life of the substrate like creating a false bottom thus creating a drainage layer beneath the substrate. This allows for the frog's urine to drain with excess water into the drainage layer. This prolongs the life of the soil by at least another 10 to 15 days. You also need to toss the substrate at least once every week or two. This allows the soil to breathe and help prevent fungal and bacterial growth further. It also keeps the frog from sitting in urine by mixing and spreading the urine throughout the still clean fresh soil making a much lesser concentration in one spot.

These are creatures of habit. They pick favorite burrowing spots and will stay there for extended periods of time. Any and every time they leave their burrow is a good time to check for feces and mix the soil up in that area. Removing feces as soon as they're seen also helps keep the substrate maintain its life and keeps fungal growth and bacteria at bay. Since these frogs live in hot damp conditions the growth of fungi and bacteria is always a threat so in taking the actions I mentioned above it can help prevent the growth of these threats and prolong substrate life.

I hope that this information. gives you some if not all the details you need.

Thanks Grif: That was good DETAILED information......

Lloyd