Sit and wait predator activity patterns

[Mercedesherp]

I wonder if the " sit and wait " predation of Ceratophrys has been compounded into an in-appropriate understandinding
in the husbandry of these frogs.

Hank

[Ra]

Would you care to elaborate on this at all? In what way has it contributed to a misunderstanding of the captive care of these animals, in your opinion?

[GrifTheGreat]

I wonder if the " sit and wait " predation of Ceratophrys has been compounded into an in-appropriate understandinding
in the husbandry of these frogs.

Hank

Hmm Could be possible, but I have seen hunting activity in some of my frogs. Especially those who have not been trained to tong feed yet. I believe that in the wild that since food doesn't always just happen by that they would venture out from the safety of their burrows to scour the forest floor for insects, spiders, rodents, lizards, other frogs, etc. Doesn't mean that they're any less of a sit and wait predator, but more that if needs be they will adapt to a need to hunt rather than wait for what may or may not come to pass by.

So do you believe that captivity has made the species lazy Hank?

[IvoryReptiles]

We have seen them use their hind feet as lures, especially the cornuta. I know it isn't professional, but I giggle every time I see it!!

[Namio]

We have seen them use their hind feet as lures, especially the cornuta. I know it isn't professional, but I giggle every time I see it!!

The technical term for that prey luring tactic is called, "toe wiggling." LOL!

[Bruce]

We have seen them use their hind feet as lures, especially the cornuta. I know it isn't professional, but I giggle every time I see it!!

I've been my pyxie frogs do this as well. Maybe at some point these frogs, maybe all terrestrial frogs shared a common ancestor that developed that trait? Who knows, south American and Africa were once connected, maybe pacman's and pyxies did share a common ancestor..

[Ra]

Ive witnessed pyxies stalk and hunt as well, my Budgetts frog does the same thing. When my Fantasy Frog sees a nightcrawler, he goes for it. But for the most part, they are in fact ambush predators of the sit and wait style but that doesnt mean they are a one trick pony.
I think the notion that these frogs should be fed a diet consisting primarily of insects is a much bigger misunderstanding of their captive care. Not that they dont eat insects, but I dont believe it makes up a very large part of their diet.

[GrifTheGreat]

Ive witnessed pyxies stalk and hunt as well, my Budgetts frog does the same thing. When my Fantasy Frog sees a nightcrawler, he goes for it. But for the most part, they are in fact ambush predators of the sit and wait style but that doesnt mean they are a one trick pony.
I think the notion that these frogs should be fed a diet consisting primarily of insects is a much bigger misunderstanding of their captive care. Not that they dont eat insects, but I dont believe it makes up a very large part of their diet.

Insects are usually more common than say a rodent passing by their burrow, but since a lot of rodents and other frog species are nocturnal as well there would be a large possibility that another frog out hunting would be ambushed and thus making up a large part of the diet. Their mouths are designed to puncture other frogs that inflate as a defense.

I feel that in captivity insects make a better diet since most feeder mice and frogs are just not as nutritious as say a wild healthy mouse or frog. Disease plays a serious roll in whether those florals are actually good or not since most captives live longer on captive diets that are more easily made disease free. There is always that one out of 10 feeders may carry a disease or parasite though.

[Ra]

Rodents, birds,frogs, snakes, lizards etc probably make up about 80%-90% of their diet in the wild.

Crickets have a terrible calcium to phosphorus ratio and offer little calcium and next to no nutrition at all if they are not properly gut loaded. And even crickets can carry parasites. As far as insects go I prefer Dubia roaches and nightcrawlers as staples over crickets. As far as vertibrate prey in captivity, I do feed occassional mice and fat head minnows, but Iam thankful for products like Pacman food that offer a complete diet of whole ground fish with other added nutrients for balance.

[GrifTheGreat]

Rodents, birds,frogs, snakes, lizards etc probably make up about 80%-90% of their diet in the wild.

Crickets have a terrible calcium to phosphorus ratio and offer little calcium and next to no nutrition at all if they are not properly gut loaded. And even crickets can carry parasites. As far as insects go I prefer Dubia roaches and nightcrawlers as staples over crickets. As far as vertibrate prey in captivity, I do feed occassional mice and fat head minnows, but Iam thankful for products like Pacman food that offer a complete diet of whole ground fish with other added nutrients for balance.

Very true. Crickets are notorious for carrying pinworms and other parasitic worms. I dislike crickets as a feeder, but they are very easy to offer to froglets. Pacman Food is an excellent food source, but can be pricey so I only offer it as a treat. I prefer Night Crawlers as a staple and do offer Dubia Roaches as well. Crickets are not even nutritious gut loaded. They are very lacking in almost all aspects of that area. Their spastic movements make them very good a getting a feeding response from your frogs though. I only use them for Baby frogs while teaching them to eat other foods.

It is difficult to offer a wild frog diet in captives. Obesity, Kidney failure, Liver Failure, and Cholesterol build up are serious problems with feeding rodents and fish. Also Cloudy Eyes from too much protein intake which is also common when feeding rodents too often, but this also has a lot to do with climate conditions and all around housing. Correct near unfluctuating climate assists greatly in digestion and metabolizing vitamins and nutrients from food as well as calcium. So I can wild amphibians diet being possibly less hazardous to their health in some ways, but with wild food items their is always far more risk. Another note that can be added though is that the wild frog may have a farely strong immune system to fight off most diseases and parasites.

[Ra]

Do you breed your own crickets? I fed four juvenile horned frogs every other day and one budgetts frog every single day and my pacman food lasted a pretty long time. I remember buying crickets by the dozen costing me at least ten bucks a week, and when I ordered them by the thousand and fed several herps, it was about $25 per thousand twice a month. I agree that they are great for getting finicky babies to respond to feeding though, and the size is right. But since Ive been back in to herps this tiome, I havent used a single cricket. Ive either used canned insects, nightcrawlers or dubias.
This time I saved on shipping and ordered several bags of pacman food. Also, I realized thats its very high protein, very high calorie and a pinkie sized piece is actually a very substantial meal, even for a larger frog. When you consider adults only need to eat it once a week, its pretty cheap in comparison to anything Ive bought so far.

To offer a wild diet, you would have to use several feeder frogs, feeder geckos, feeder anoles, feeder snakes, feeder mice, small birds, feeder fish, as well as invertebrates. Considering all reptilian and ambhibian feeders are wild caught, pet store feeders are gross and the safest invertebrate, mice are too high in fat and vitamin A, its certainly a health risk to a captive amphibian. It would take much more than just mice and fish, and again, that is why I am thanful for the pacman food, its whole ground fish and thus has bones and is naturally high in calcium, high calorie and is nutritionally balanced and, though a dry food, more closely imitates the nutritional requirements of their natural vertebrate diet than insects.

I think you should get out the calculator and do some figuring over what you spend on feeder bugs, nightcrawlers etc, what it costs to purchase and feed and maintain them and also purchasing supplements versus using the pacman food as a staple, with insects, nightcralwers and other foods offered as treats. The Pacman food seems much more economical to me.

[GrifTheGreat]

Do you breed your own crickets? I fed four juvenile horned frogs every other day and one budgetts frog every single day and my pacman food lasted a pretty long time. I remember buying crickets by the dozen costing me at least ten bucks a week, and when I ordered them by the thousand and fed several herps, it was about $25 per thousand twice a month. I agree that they are great for getting finicky babies to respond to feeding though, and the size is right. But since Ive been back in to herps this tiome, I havent used a single cricket. Ive either used canned insects, nightcrawlers or dubias.
This time I saved on shipping and ordered several bags of pacman food. Also, I realized thats its very high protein, very high calorie and a pinkie sized piece is actually a very substantial meal, even for a larger frog. When you consider adults only need to eat it once a week, its pretty cheap in comparison to anything Ive bought so far.

To offer a wild diet, you would have to use several feeder frogs, feeder geckos, feeder anoles, feeder snakes, feeder mice, small birds, feeder fish, as well as invertebrates. Considering all reptilian and ambhibian feeders are wild caught, pet store feeders are gross and the safest invertebrate, mice are too high in fat and vitamin A, its certainly a health risk to a captive amphibian. It would take much more than just mice and fish, and again, that is why I am thanful for the pacman food, its whole ground fish and thus has bones and is naturally high in calcium, high calorie and is nutritionally balanced and, though a dry food, more closely imitates the nutritional requirements of their natural vertebrate diet than infects

I think you should get out the calculator and do some figuring over what you spend on feeder bugs, nightcrawlers etc, what it costs to purchase and feed and maintain them and also purchasing supplements versus using the pacman food as a staple, with insects, nightcralwers and other foods offered as treats. The Pacman food seems much more economical to me.

Oh believe me I know how much I spend and I'm not disagreeing with you. The problem with the Pacman Food is that not all frogs will accept it. There is always a chance that one your frogs will reject it. I have 3 that reject it as a food item. Not because it doesn't wiggle and squirm, but because they just don't like it. It can't always be the food of choice that is offered. Feeder inverts are always available and there could very well be a time when Pacman Food is not. Not saying that they'll stop making it because that would be absurd, but more that something happens to where they can't ship any or are behind on production.

Ra you don't have to preach cost to me. I know very well what I spend and what my future finances will need to be in order to begin my breeding project and I don't entirely agree with everything stated in Philippe's books, but each breeder will take advice from another's experience. Its not about cost as much as keep my animals healthy and happy. What works for you may not work for someone else and so on with what I do.

I like the Pacman Food. It is one of the best feeder ideas produced in my book, but not all frogs accept it. If raised on it from birth than most of the time they will always accept it, but some begin to grow tired of the food and stop eating it. I'm glad it works for you, but I have no problems with how my animals are kept and fed. They are provided with variety and occasionally Pacman Food. I prefer a more natural diet than a processed powder. I see the Pacman Food as a Muscle Building Supplement . You know those gritty powders you mix with water and drink an hour before you work out? Lol! Kind of works like one too. There is no doubt that it is an excellent food for them and it is proven that the frogs grow very rapidly when fed it, but they can grow just as fast with a varied diet and a good staple.

Edit; We are going off topic now and need to return to the topic of this thread so lets leave it at that.