URGENT! Sick Whites Tree Frog (Pictures included)

[frolicthefaun]

I feel the substrate was the issue, even if Kevin didn't swallow it, I feel like it had been harboring some sort of bacteria. while I was removing the substrate from the tank, it had an odd smell to it, somewhere around rotten eggs and mold. I removed it all completely, washed down the tank and everything in it. I also removed a wooden hut that was in the tank which had started decomposing on the side I couldn't see.

I feel that Kevin would have died within the first week or two within having the two together in the tank or at least shown signs of illness if he had gotten something from Trevor. I had him for about a month and a week and then it happened when I noticed the smell in the substrate. So I think that he swallowed the substrate and the substrate had something in it.

Which leads me to a new subject... what is a easier substrate to maintain then coconut fiber? I found it hard to clean and messy. Maybe just simple leaf litter on the bottom? Rocks? Suggestions for a substrate are welcomed. :] Rude comments are not.

Thanks. <3

[Rae]

I apologize I wasn't exactly meaning to be rude but more frustrated that people come here for advice then outright post they don't trust us. So why bother coming here? Taking our advice MAY help save her next frog from dieing in a similar way and not even considering we are right and that maybe the vet missed something and risking it is very upsetting.

I put sheet moss over my subtrate now but my frogs are tong fed so im not worried about impaction. I have also looked into leaf litter as well.

What I just read about the smelly subtrate does prove it wasn't impaction...

[GrifTheGreat]

I feel the substrate was the issue, even if Kevin didn't swallow it, I feel like it had been harboring some sort of bacteria. while I was removing the substrate from the tank, it had an odd smell to it, somewhere around rotten eggs and mold. I removed it all completely, washed down the tank and everything in it. I also removed a wooden hut that was in the tank which had started decomposing on the side I couldn't see.

I feel that Kevin would have died within the first week or two within having the two together in the tank or at least shown signs of illness if he had gotten something from Trevor. I had him for about a month and a week and then it happened when I noticed the spell in the substrate. So I think that he swallowed the substrate and the substrate had something in it.

Which leads me to a new subject... what is a easier substrate to maintain then coconut fiber? I found it hard to clean and messy. Maybe just simple leaf litter on the bottom? Rocks? Suggestions for a substrate are welcomed. :] Rude comments are not.

Thanks. <3

Just use moist paper towels as substrate, but replace them everyday so no fungal growth occurs. This will also help you keep track of bowel movement and is very easily cleaned. A word of advice though. Keep different species separate. You don't know what caused his death for sure and it is better to be safe than sorry. This issue has come up quite a few time here on this forum and most ended like this one. They don't live together or coexist in the wild so don't assume they will be ok in captivity.

I believe that this thread has gotten out of hand and so I'm not going to dwell on that subject any longer. Use paper towels as substrate. You'll find that it is much easier to maintain and clean.

[John]

I can't speak for the others here, but I've been keeping amphibians since I was a small boy, 30 years ago. I understand your unwillingness to accept what I and others have said, but, and not to sound big-headed, I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to this matter. Vets ask _me_ for advice on treating frogs and other amphibians.

The substrate smelled like it did because of anaerobic bacterial activity. This is normal when the substrate isn't aerated and/or turned over by the activity of earthworms, etc. Provided there was some ventilation in the terrarium, it's extremely unlikely that this had anything to do with the frog's death.

[CamilleElise]

I will repeat what so many others have said: It is always a bad idea to mix species. They just have so many different requirements, and have different toxins that can be deadly to each other. It's tempting because It's fun to have different species, but it's not healthy for them.

Also, the coconut fiber shouldn't have caused impact. I use coconut fiber for all 8 of the Whites I have had in the past year, and impaction has not yet occurred. They rarely swallow any, and if they do it's a minute amount and ground fine enough they just process it through their system. Unless your frog was eating mouthfuls and mouthfuls of dirt, I doubt coconut fiber was the culprit.

Question: Is your vet a reptile/amphibian/exotic animal vet? I feel like a lot of vets might try to help out an exotic animal and basic research does show impaction can happen, but I feel like an experienced exotic animal vet should and would know that finely ground coconut substrate shouldn't cause impaction. Yes, we are strangers on the internet, but consider that many of us have years of experience with this species (myself, I have over 20) and while a vet may mean well, they may not have their own direct experience with a species, even if they are an exotic animal vet. Personally, I trust my vet, he's an exotic animal vet, but I also give a lot of weight to those on here who do have a lot of years of experience keeping Whites, the fact is sometimes they know more than my vet because of their direct experience, and because so little is known about these guys and their illnesses. Just a thought. Through vet visits and online research and forums I have been fortunate to save several little guys from some pretty dire health situations to have them go on to lead long and happy and healthy lives. Out of all 13 Whites I have ever owned, only 2 have ever died from illness, all the rest have gone on to live long lives and appear to have died from old age.

Also, mixing species won't cause instantaneous death, but the toxins can slowly accumulate in the frogs' system and cause death that way, just FYI.