Should I breed my Chacoan Horned Frogs?

[Ra]

Considering the fact that Chacoan Horned frogs are commercially bred on such a large scale level, is it ethical to flood the market with hobbysit bred Pacman frogs?

I had recently purchased a trio of C. Cranwelli, one albino and two green, and had been planning to breed them when they matured. I have since considered otherwise.

Here are the cons: Chacoan Horned frogs are already well established in the pet industry and hobbyist level breeding may drive down the market and make commercial breeding programs less viable. It would be expensive considering the potential return investement would be so low. It would be more worthwhile to attempt to breed a less established species of frog such as the Budgetts frog, Stolzmanns Horned Frogs or C. Cornuta.

The pros; I could try my hand at breeding Cranwelli to gain experience at breeding these frogs (which I already have years of experience keeping as pets) and thus be better prepared and know a bit more what to expect when breeding other species. Color morphs are only recently starting to show up in the Cranwelli trade, and line breeding could make for some interesting possibilities, maybe. Also, there are very few local breeders of these frogs in my part of the US (Mn), which may give me an opportunity to sell the frogs at a local level to petshops and reptile specialty stores that currently have to sell them at higher prices than most other parts of the country, such as Florida and California, most people in mn breed boids, pythons, beardies and leopard/fat tail geckos, not pacman frogs. I could also sell them at midwestern reptile expos. The final and most interesting consideration would be establishing NATURALLY bred frogs, bred through cycling rather than hormonal injections which may produce larger and healthier frogs than generations of hormone injected breeding.

There dont seem to be too many people breeding these at the hobbyist level, should they be?

[GrifTheGreat]

It is usually a good idea to consider breeding your frogs. I plan on Breeding later on, but have plenty of Time to learn the complete process from already experienced breeders here on the forum.

[Ra]

Why do you think it is a usually a good idea to consider breeding your frogs?

[pac]

Do some research and get the rainchamber built and the babys food bloodworms or blackworms I wouldn't breed cranwelis it to many peolple breeding them alreadly naturally or hormones do ornata that what I'm working on and albinos ,ornata and cranweli mixes

[Ra]

Im not at all interested in breeding any hybrids. But you're right, alot of people breed Cranwell's and they are very well established in the pet trade. It would be like breeding regular colored Leopard Geckos at this point.
Ornates would be interesting, I've never kept one. I've read they have multi generational breeding problems. I'd be interested in Cornuta, but there has been no F2 success with that species. I have been seriously considering breeding breed Stolzmann's Horned Frogs, and purchasing a group of 4 to 6 from Understory Enterprises.

I've also been considering breeding Budgetts Frogs.

[mikesfrogs]

Ornatas are very hard to breed. Almost all breeders I know of use hormones on them. Mine have yet to breed in 6 months. Partly due to not having enough of them. The usa ornata stock is hard to breed for some reason. I am importing 100 baby ornates from japan this fall. I am keeping half of them to use as breeders to see if they are easier to breed.

A dependable male is what you need for sure. I have one that is a brown cranwelli and he does the job everytime. All I do is pick him up set him on the girl. He then grabs her and the next day I have eggs. Only male of mine that will do that.

The frogs you raise will sell. There are billions of people on the earth. Brush up on your sales and service skills along with marketing and the buyers will come. :-)

[mikesfrogs]

Just remember with the smaller more rare pacman species you are mainly going to only sell to collectors. They are a high dollar frog and small. Not much attraction to them. Not like a 8 inch ornate that eats a mouse.

That's why at this point most breeders have been shy to breed them.

Im not at all interested in breeding any hybrids. But you're right, alot of people breed Cranwell's and they are very well established in the pet trade. It would be like breeding regular colored Leopard Geckos at this point.
Ornates would be interesting, I've never kept one. I've read they have multi generational breeding problems. I'd be interested in Cornuta, but there has been no F2 success with that species. I have been seriously considering breeding breed Stolzmann's Horned Frogs, and purchasing a group of 4 to 6 from Understory Enterprises.

I've also been considering breeding Budgetts Frogs.

[Ra]

To be honest Im not much interested in the rare ones from understory either, the only appeal they have is that they are miniatures, otherwise they look nearly the same as a Chacoan to me.
You've convinced me then Mike. I guess I'll give it a go. Judging by growth rate and size its looking like the female is going to be the albino one, and the greens are males (hi-green and lo-green...not permanent names). The albino also has a somewhat more female shaped snout, but we'll see. Is it better to have more males than females as with other frogs, to help induce breeding or what have you?

[mikesfrogs]

Probably have more females than males. All that matters is in the rainchamber. I would do two males per female in the chamber.

[pac]

I have a male albino like that I put him in there with my females and they attached but no eggs. Next year I will have a nice group of ornatas I have three juvie that look promiseing and probably I will get more ornata I want a nice size female albino for my male

[pac]

Mike I do two females with one male which one is better I have to get one more male

[mikesfrogs]

You want 4 males to 2 females. The males will not breed multiple females in the chamber.

There is almost a 100% chance that you will have to use hormones on the ornates. Not many breeders have been able to get them to breed this year.

[pac]

I'm not trying to use hormones I don't even know where to get hormones from. But I will keep trying the natural.

[GrifTheGreat]

Why do you think it is a usually a good idea to consider breeding your frogs?

Experience is a part of why its a good idea. Also it is their natural behavior to seek out a mate and breed. Most books on keeping frogs suggests that you breed your frog if you're going to be keeping them for years. Basically to further the species and there is always going to be people wanting Pacman Frogs no matter what species they are. Sure Cranwell's is the main species in the trade, but that's because out of every species its the easiest to breed. Also no two frogs are alike so each individual you produce has the potential to be better, healthier, and more vibrant in color and pattern that your competition. I don't even see other breeders as competition because of location. Mike is in Cali. Jim and Jess are in Texas and I'm in Ohio. I don't even know of any breeders even close to me. Atleast none that I've heard of so not really competing. Plus you can buy and sell to other breeders to help keep the gene pool healthy and strong.

There are many benefits to breeding your frogs. I bet it gives a great feeding of accomplishment as well

[pac]

I live in Virgnia I don't thing anybody breeding them besides me trying to I'm a very close friend to my local petstore the manager of the reptiles knows because I come in there buy food for frogs and buy frogs from them and sold frogs to them

[Ra]

Experience is a part of why its a good idea. Also it is their natural behavior to seek out a mate and breed. Most books on keeping frogs suggests that you breed your frog if you're going to be keeping them for years. Basically to further the species and there is always going to be people wanting Pacman Frogs no matter what species they are. Sure Cranwell's is the main species in the trade, but that's because out of every species its the easiest to breed. Also no two frogs are alike so each individual you produce has the potential to be better, healthier, and more vibrant in color and pattern that your competition. I don't even see other breeders as competition because of location. Mike is in Cali. Jim and Jess are in Texas and I'm in Ohio. I don't even know of any breeders even close to me. Atleast none that I've heard of so not really competing. Plus you can buy and sell to other breeders to help keep the gene pool healthy and strong.

There are many benefits to breeding your frogs. I bet it gives a great feeding of accomplishment as well

Well its certainly something I'd like to experience, thats for sure.
Interestingly, most books I have on Pacman frogs suggest that if you are caring for them as pets, breeding them is not the best idea, as it is risky to the frogs. The longest records for captive horned frogs werent breeders.
The concern I have is that Cranwell's are so easy to breed and so well established, and the fact that a few large commercial breeding programs supply most of the frogs to pet stores nation wide. The concern here is that too many hobbyist breeders drive down the market, making financially straining on established commercial breeding programs and possibly force them out of business.

I plan to breed the Cranwell's a few times as a practice run, and use any money I make to invest in either rare color morphs or even rarer species, such as Stolzmann's or Auritas.
Location was a key part of my interest, I plan on pursuing breeding and selling these frogs and selling them mainly in the upper midwest, as all of the reptile specialty stores around here order theres from the west or east coast at high shipping costs. Ive never seen any Horned frog breeders at any of the expos Ive been to around here over the years. Most people around here breed snakes, geckos or bearded dragons.

[Ra]

I posted the same question to Phillipe De Vosjoli, and heres what he had to say (hope he doesnt mind me quoting him)

"Ron,Since I wrote that booklet, I have seen so many attempts to commercialize horned frogs fail that I've concluded that a free market approach is the best. . The large scale breeders now offer a wife range of species and their selection makes them resistant to pressure from individuals who focus on a single species. Being successful to profitably breed frogs is difficult. If you have a market then definitely breed your frogs. One of the great obstacles to success is designing a system that allows large scale housing and rearing of froglets to reduce loss from cannibalism without it being so labor intensive that it becomes non profitable.

C. cornuta to my knowledge has not been bred to an F2 generation but one individual who focuses on this species may have. C. cornuta needs to be established in herpetoculture or it will one day no longer be available. Long generation time of about 3 years is one of the obstacles.
Ornate horned frogs should be bred as well as Budgett's frogs. In the case of all of these, introducing new blood from imports is a good idea (both Chacoan and Budgetts are imported once or twice a year, usually in fall/winter from Paraguay).

Hope this answers you questions.

Best,

Philippe"

[Wizzlewuzzle]

I posted the same question to Phillipe De Vosjoli, and heres what he had to say (hope he doesnt mind me quoting him)

"Ron,Since I wrote that booklet, I have seen so many attempts to commercialize horned frogs fail that I've concluded that a free market approach is the best. . The large scale breeders now offer a wife range of species and their selection makes them resistant to pressure from individuals who focus on a single species. Being successful to profitably breed frogs is difficult. If you have a market then definitely breed your frogs. One of the great obstacles to success is designing a system that allows large scale housing and rearing of froglets to reduce loss from cannibalism without it being so labor intensive that it becomes non profitable.

C. cornuta to my knowledge has not been bred to an F2 generation but one individual who focuses on this species may have. C. cornuta needs to be established in herpetoculture or it will one day no longer be available. Long generation time of about 3 years is one of the obstacles.
Ornate horned frogs should be bred as well as Budgett's frogs. In the case of all of these, introducing new blood from imports is a good idea (both Chacoan and Budgetts are imported once or twice a year, usually in fall/winter from Paraguay).

Hope this answers you questions.

Best,

Philippe"

Very interesting; thanks for sharing.