Sick Pacman and Vet unsure

[Izzy]

I have a new pacman frog. I have had him about 7 weeks. He has been completely fine up until a week ago. He has been eating 3-4 crickets a day. Last Thursday, the pet store I bought him from told me I could give him mini superworms as a treat. I gave him two, and he ate them no problem. On Friday, he pooped and he only ate 1 cricket. On Saturday, he ate 1 cricket, but when he tried to catch the cricket he kept losing his balance and flipped over on his back. He kept flipping over on his back the rest of the day. Then he regurgitated possibly his stomach, but sucked it back in after soaking. I contacted the vet after this happened on Saturday; She was out of town due to a death in her family. She told me to send him in to the other vet in her office, and she would contact him by phone on how to treat the little guy. I removed all substrate, cleaned everything and put him on paper towels. He began hopping around weird on Sunday. The vet couldn't see him until Tuesday, and since he doesn't treat amphibians, he has been contacting the specialist by phone. By Tuesday morning he swelled up really big, and his left eye dialated. He drained him, and he prescribed Baytril. The vet has been seeing him each day and draining him and updating the specialist. Yesterday, they prescribed lasix, a diuretic. They were thinking possibly a bacterial infection due to superworms. He believes this because he has been regurgitating his stomach at least once a day. Starting yesterday, under vet orders, I have started the pedialyte soak and attempting to force feed. He is alert and when he sees the syringe coming he pushes it away and regurgitates his stomach if I get any in his mouth. Since I have been soaking in pedialyte, I have noticed he is attempting to shed. Long pieces of brown skin come off of him while he is in the water. A few minutes ago, I went in to change his paper towels and water, and he had what appeared to be a seizure. He raised his back legs up in the air, opened his mouth really wide, his pupils constricted, and he formed these weird lumps all over him. He is back to normal now, but the specialist won't be back til next week. The other vet and I have been researching to see if we can find anything. Has anyone ever experienced this, and if so what kind of treatments did they try? He is alert and appears to be doing somewhat better. He no longer flips over, and he is not turning septic. Also, the swelling is now contained in the abdomen only. Also, all tests they have done have come up negative.

[GrifTheGreat]

How old is the frog? Is it a baby or juvenile? Do you de-chlorinate all water used for your frog? This includes substrate expanding?

Answer these questions http://www.frogforum.net/pacman-frog...enclosure.html

[mikesfrogs]

He has a bacteria infection if he is bloating. A easy way to tell is if his stomach is swollen still with no food inside him. The best way to get rid of it is a baytril solution.

[Izzy]

1. Size of enclosure
- 10 gal
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
- only him
3. Humidity
-was about 80% on vet's orders we are making it a little drier. He is so bloated; vet said as long as I keep an eye on him there is no risk of drying out. Now about 50%
4. Temperature
- before illness 81-85 F during day and 75-80 at night. Now, vet has instructed me to warm him up a little, so its' about 86F during day and 80 at night
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
-was using bottled water, but was concerned it wasn't pure enough so I switched to pure spring water
6. Materials used for substrate
- ZooMed eco-earth coconut fiber; I buy the bags that are already expanded. I used moss in one corner where he doesn't eat bc he enjoys hiding under it. Currently, damp paper towels are the substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
-he had a large shallow water dish and an artificial log/plant combination. I keep it pretty simple.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
-ate medium crickets 3-4 a day, only once did he eat 2 mini super worms as a treat
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
-no vitamins; calcium with D3 twice a week and crickets are feed gutload with vitamins and calcium with D3
10. Lighting
-reptisun uvb lighting for amphibians; 12 hours a day
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
-under the tank heater, but its placed on the side of the tank instead of underneath
12. When is the last time he/she ate
-exactly one week; attempting to force feed exotic critter intensive care feed with mashed up crickets (on vet's orders), but each time i put the syringe in his mouth he regurgitates his stomach (possibly) or tongue. I thought tongue bc maybe the worms bit him, but the vet said it may be stomach; they have never actually seen him do it.
13. Have you found poop lately
-last poop was on Saturday night or Sunday morning. I was asleep
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog
-juvenile; I purchased him 7 weeks ago
16. How long have you owned him/her
-7 weeks
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
-not sure; however, the pet store says all their frogs are captive bred
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
-only the 2 mini superworms that one time
19. How often the frog is handled
-until illness never unless tank was being cleaned; now I'm trying to keep it to a minimum but i have to administer medications 3 times a day, and he has to do his soakings and attempted force feeds. also, he has been to the vet every day for the past week. I wish it was less, but we have decided to use aggressive techniques bc once a frog is sick it usually doesn't make it.
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
-he is kept in our spare bedroom; there is usually no traffic unless its me checking on the frog
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)
-water changes: daily or every other day if I noticed he hasn't been in it
-entire thing cleaned once a month. Until his illness, I only used hot water and mild soap to clean inside out (I always used bottled water). For the initial cleaning for the hospital tank, I filled the tank up with a bleach water solution. Then rinsed with spring water. Now I have been cleaning with bleach water solution daily on a rag when he is soaking and rinsing with spring water

I'll attach pictures in a few minutes.

[Izzy]

We are medicating for a bacterial infection with baytril. Last dose is tomorrow, and there is no improvement, other than the swelling is gone in his legs (its isolated to his abdomen). Is there anything I can do for the bloat? He looks awful.

[Izzy]

I know that looks bad, but the herp vet called last night and said it is normal and is his way of protesting the force feedings. She said leave it alone and he will suck it back in when he calms down.

[Izzy]

Sorry it didn't post the first time.

[GrifTheGreat]

Baytril like Mike said or flagyl treatments. The swelling won't go down until the infection begins to clear up. I wish there was more I could do to help. Keep up with what you're doing. Hopefully all will clear up and he will be back to normal.

[Izzy]

here is the other photo

[Izzy]

Thanks Grif. I was just making sure; we are trying our best until the specialist is back. She should be back on Monday, but I just wanted to make sure we were doing everything possible.

[GrifTheGreat]

Thanks Grif. I was just making sure; we are trying our best until the specialist is back. She should be back on Monday, but I just wanted to make sure we were doing everything possible.

You're welcome. I really hope he pulls through.

[mikesfrogs]

Don't feed it til the swelling goes down.

[Izzy]

Here is an update on the little guy. On Monday he saw the frog Doctor she drained 23 cc of fluid off him and we have managed to keep it off! Still not sure what is going on; the fluid was plain water. There was no evidenc of any infection or parasite. By vet orders, I am dripping a special saline solution on his back 3 times a day. He is off all medications, and I finally got him to eat. He won't eat by himself so I have been force feeding small pieces of night crawler coated in exotic animal critical care food supplement. Still very lethargic and left pupil is still dilated. It also seems like he is having difficulty peeing. Anyone experience anything similar? The vet is thinking possible kidney, heart, or nerological problem; she is consulting with other vets to see if there is any other treatments that she doesn't know about.

[DVirginiana]

Here is an update on the little guy. On Monday he saw the frog Doctor she drained 23 cc of fluid off him and we have managed to keep it off! Still not sure what is going on; the fluid was plain water. There was no evidenc of any infection or parasite. By vet orders, I am dripping a special saline solution on his back 3 times a day. He is off all medications, and I finally got him to eat. He won't eat by himself so I have been force feeding small pieces of night crawler coated in exotic animal critical care food supplement. Still very lethargic and left pupil is still dilated. It also seems like he is having difficulty peeing. Anyone experience anything similar? The vet is thinking possible kidney, heart, or nerological problem; she is consulting with other vets to see if there is any other treatments that she doesn't know about.

Hopefully your little guy gets better...
I've had cats with kidney failure, and it looks similar to that. There's difficulty urinating, and eventually the toxins can build up and cause neurological problems. A zillion other things or even multiple, less serious conditions might cause those same symptoms though. Fingers crossed that it's something your frog can bounce back from.. You're lucky to have access to a specialist.

[GrifTheGreat]

Water retention can be a few things, but kidney failure is number one. Toxing Out Syndrome cause this as well as lethargy and lsitlesness. Just keep up what you're doing and hopefully he'll pull through. It takes Amphibians a long Time to recover so be patient. Good luck

[Izzy]

Hopefully your little guy gets better...
I've had cats with kidney failure, and it looks similar to that. There's difficulty urinating, and eventually the toxins can build up and cause neurological problems. A zillion other things or even multiple, less serious conditions might cause those same symptoms though. Fingers crossed that it's something your frog can bounce back from.. You're lucky to have access to a specialist.

Yes. Bowling Green, Ky is very lucky to have All Creatures Animal Hospital. The staff is very dedicated to serving all animals, and they won't give up no matter how bad the situation looks.

I really hope he does pull through; even though he is new I'm starting to get attached. I'll keep this post updated in case anyone else experiences a similar problem.

[Izzy]

Here is an update. He is still being treated with the saline soaks and being force feed. He did walk around a bit last night without flipping over. No pee - that I have noticed. I have noticed his color has changed. He had some yellow markings that have turned a pale brown color (almost a dirty white) but his green coloring has remained the same exact color. Is this normal? Could it be stress or could he be changing to blend in with his paper towel substrate?

[GrifTheGreat]

Here is an update. He is still being treated with the saline soaks and being force feed. He did walk around a bit last night without flipping over. No pee - that I have noticed. I have noticed his color has changed. He had some yellow markings that have turned a pale brown color (almost a dirty white) but his green coloring has remained the same exact color. Is this normal? Could it be stress or could he be changing to blend in with his paper towel substrate?

He is definitely stressed. There is no way around the stress at this point.

[Izzy]

Is there anything else I can do? We have managed to get handling him down to only once a day for his feeding. The saline treatments are dripped on his back. Other than that, he is left alone. I know having food stuffed in his mouth is stressful, but is there anything else I can do to help reduce the stress?

[GrifTheGreat]

Is there anything else I can do? We have managed to get handling him down to only once a day for his feeding. The saline treatments are dripped on his back. Other than that, he is left alone. I know having food stuffed in his mouth is stressful, but is there anything else I can do to help reduce the stress?

No. Just keep doing what you're doing. Hopefully he'll be ok. If you want to help him per place him in Luke warm de-chlorinated water.