Euthanasia?

[CJonard]

Hi all. I have written in before (http://www.frogforum.net/pacman-frog...t-no-help.html) and my frog is still not eating/acting well. I am wondering if it is time to put him out of his misery. I am force feeding him every other day (sometimes every third...3 kids makes it hard to do it more frequently) and I just know he is miserable. At the moment, he is sitting in his feeding enclosure snubbing his nose at some worms.
I am just at my wits end trying to save him...but am I making it worse?
Here are the pics I should have sent with the first post.
Any thoughts? Improvements? Suggestions? I kind of think he is in kidney failure now because he bloats up SO much. The other day you could see through his skin he had retained so much water--and that is not unusual.
If this is a case of bad genetics (and I think it might be) then how does one best euthanize a frog? And when do you say enough is enough?

[pinkcloud]

i think i read freezing them was the most humane way ..... but im not sure when enoughs enough .....hopefully someone with more knowledge can answer ur question

[CJonard]

So I just finished FF him, and snapped a few more pics with his weird mouth issues (his tongue sticks out of it when he is feeding) and his bloating. I have been FFing him as his sole intake of calories for about 3 months now.

[mikesfrogs]

He doesnt look right. His genetics might be off alittle. These things happen.

[SkeletalFrog]

Definitely do not freeze him. Freezing is not a humane method for the euthanasia of reptiles or amphibians.

Your best option is to go to any specialty aquarium store (not a chain like Petco), and ask for anaesthetics. There are 3 standards - Metomidate (marketed under "Aqua-calm"), MS-222 aka tricaine (marketed under "Finquel"), and Eugenol aka clove oil. Any will work, and you can just call any aquarium store and ask for them by these names.

There will be directions on the bottle of each for anesthesia and euthanasia of fish, but because frogs don't have gills, I recommend increasing the euthanasia dose by five times or more (after all, more won't hurt). Just mix as directed, put the frog in, and wait for an hour or so.

Because they're anaesthetics, the frog will just gently go to sleep, just like what happens with dogs and cats at the vet (though the vet uses a chemical not available to the public).

[IvoryReptiles]

Definitely do not freeze him. Freezing is not a humane method for the euthanasia of reptiles or amphibians.

Your best option is to go to any specialty aquarium store (not a chain like Petco), and ask for anaesthetics. There are 3 standards - Metomidate (marketed under "Aqua-calm"), MS-222 aka tricaine (marketed under "Finquel"), and Eugenol aka clove oil. Any will work, and you can just call any aquarium store and ask for them by these names.

There will be directions on the bottle of each for anesthesia and euthanasia of fish, but because frogs don't have gills, I recommend increasing the euthanasia dose by five times or more (after all, more won't hurt). Just mix as directed, put the frog in, and wait for an hour or so.

Because they're anaesthetics, the frog will just gently go to sleep, just like what happens with dogs and cats at the vet (though the vet uses a chemical not available to the public).

When these particular frogs start to get cold, they tend to go into aestivation.......they go to sleep. Freezing, in my opinion is just as viable as the methods mentioned here. It has the same effect, and in all honesty, takes less time to do the job. Frogs do not react the same as fish do to these anesthetics. I have seen this myself....the frogs don't always "just go gently to sleep".......they sometimes will have seizures as a reaction to the drugs. With freezing, they do simply shut down. They go into aestivation mode before the cells start to freeze and the whole process takes less than an hour. In the end, it is your choice as to which method you use.

[GrifTheGreat]

You can also use Neosporine that contains painkiller. the painkiller in it will put the frog to sleep. It is supposed to be a very humane method of euthanizing a frog.

[SkeletalFrog]

When these particular frogs start to get cold, they tend to go into aestivation.......they go to sleep. Freezing, in my opinion is just as viable as the methods mentioned here. It has the same effect, and in all honesty, takes less time to do the job. Frogs do not react the same as fish do to these anesthetics. I have seen this myself....the frogs don't always "just go gently to sleep".......they sometimes will have seizures as a reaction to the drugs. With freezing, they do simply shut down. They go into aestivation mode before the cells start to freeze and the whole process takes less than an hour. In the end, it is your choice as to which method you use.

Quoting the 2007 American Veterinary Medical Association Guidelines on Euthanasia http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_we...euthanasia.pdf

"Cooling—It has been suggested that, when using physical methods of euthanasia in ectothermic species, cooling to 4 C will decrease metabolism and facilitate handling, but there is no evidence that whole body cooling reduces pain or is clinically efficacious. 206 Local cooling in frogs does reduce nociception, and this may be partly opioid mediated. 207 Immobilization of reptiles by cooling is considered inappropriate and inhumane even if combined with other physical or chemical methods of euthanasia. Snakes and turtles, immobilized by cooling, have been killed by subsequent freezing. This method is not recommended.13 Formation of ice crystals on the skin and in tissues of an animal may cause pain or distress. Quick freezing of deeply anes
thetized animals is acceptable.208 "

This is the definitive source for all euthanasia protocols.



More personally, I've used MS-222 in numerous surgeries on Rana, Osteopilus, and Bufo, and have never seen a "bad reaction". Given that it supresses activity in the central nervous system, including sensation, even if there *was* any adverse reaction the animal would by definition be unable to feel it. It's also incapable of producing seizures because it inhibits skeletal muscle contraction, hence why I can't use it for euthanasia prior to muscle physiology experiments.

Clove oil may produced muscle spasms at high concentrations, but also disables the nerves. No nerves, no sensation. It may not necessarily be pretty to look at, but it is physiologically impossible for the animal to feel it.

Metomidate is actually used for HUMAN anaesthesia in certain circumstances. It's also a central nervous system depressor, so any peripheral effects are literally not felt.

[cyris69]

I'm sorry to hear about your froggy and wish you both the best!

I just wanted to butt in and see if maybe using all three together as a cocktail would be the most effective way to do it since they all seem to suppress specific things or have specific side affects during the process.

[DVirginiana]

I am sorry to hear about your frog, and hope whatever happens goes down in the least painful way possible for both of you

I'm personally more comfortable with the idea of injections than I am with freezing... Just a personal thing, I don't know anything about them other than what I've read on this and other forums.
Just wondering... How would you go about giving an injection to a frog? It seems like it could be painful or (comparatively) slow if done wrong..
Also, does anyone know if the clove oil works well on other reptiles, or is it just frogs/fish because their systems absorb it so much more quickly?

I'm sorry to hear about your froggy and wish you both the best!

I just wanted to butt in and see if maybe using all three together as a cocktail would be the most effective way to do it since they all seem to suppress specific things or have specific side affects during the process.

I wouldn't. They could interact within an animal's body and potentially result in a slower or more painful death. That might not be the case with these particular drugs, but it's better not to take the risk. Any one of them should do the job quickly, so I would see no reason to mix them.
Someone who knows more about it could give better advice, but from an uninformed POV mixing meds like that is generally a no-no.

[reichiere]

Could you use the CO2/Dry ice method? I know people use it to kill rats.

Stick the poor frog in a container with dry ice in it, (but placed so he can't touch it) as it melts it releases the CO2 and it replaces the oxgyen. From what I understand it supposed to be painless. But I only know of using it for rats, not sure how a frog would react.

I've heard of the clove oil in the water on several fish forums as the best way to euthanase fish.

[SkeletalFrog]

Could you use the CO2/Dry ice method? I know people use it to kill rats.

Stick the poor frog in a container with dry ice in it, (but placed so he can't touch it) as it melts it releases the CO2 and it replaces the oxgyen. From what I understand it supposed to be painless. But I only know of using it for rats, not sure how a frog would react.

I've heard of the clove oil in the water on several fish forums as the best way to euthanase fish.

CO2 isn't currently listed as an approved method of euthanasia for anything outside of birds and mammals, with the suggestion that it simply takes too long in cold-blooded species. I would worry that it wouldn't produce the specific sedative effect that it does in mammals and birds, and that the ability of reptiles and amphibians to tolerate extremely low oxygen levels could severely complicate things.

A primary concern of mine would be acidification of the blood. CO2 becomes carbonic acid when dissolved in water (this is where drink carbonation comes from), so excessive CO2 concentrations can raise blood acidity (conversely, too low CO2, such as at high atmosphere, can decrease acidity and bring on other similarly bad effects). Mammals will die from lack of oxygen long before this becomes an issue, but reptiles and amphibians can tolerate low oxygen levels. However, I know that frogs can tolerate wide ranges in their body fluid acidity as well, so it may not matter.

Personally, I'd advise against it, but only based on an absence of properly collected data. It may work fine, but I'd rather let a veterinary researcher prove that before trying it myself.

[reichiere]

Ahh...

Yah I wasn't too sure if would work, or could work with a reptile due to the difference in the physiology from a reptile and a mammal.

Perhaps a call to the vet? Sometimes even non-specialists will assist in emergencies (Most vets have access to another vet, or survice that advise them) and they may have a chemical that is recommend for Frogs that the vet may have access too. You may be able to work so you just pay for the treatment... or it could even be something you could pick up and bring home... It never hurts to ask!