I have had my ACF for about a year. He lives with the rest of my fish in a 105g custom with a 48g sump.
He was fine 3 days ago, but last night I noticed that he got really bloated and it looks liquid. It's hard to say whether he ate something (like the piece of squid that my hystrix left around last night), but it doesn't look right. Otherwise he seems ok, spending time in the plants or laying on the substrate.
Beyond aspiration, which I'd like to avoid, does anyone have any other suggestions or any experience dealing with this?
Thanks in advance.
I would set up another tank - about 10+ gallons for the frog and use a tupperware to administer salt baths.
Use Epsom salt, 1/2 TEAspoon per gallon of water. Remember to treat with conditioner like you do for your tank during water changes. Leave the frog in the bath for up to one hour daily.
Put the frog in the QT (10 + gallon tank mentioned earlier). Do not put the salt bath water in the tank.
Pictures would help.
Bloat can often be fatal if brought on by environmental conditions.
What type of fish do you have in the tank?
How long has it been set up?
Is the filter cycled?
What are your current readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?
What type of substrate do you use?
What do you feed the frog?
What size is your frog?
Again, pictures are very helpful
72 Gallon Bow - ACF and GF tank.
26 Gallon Bow - ACF tank.
20 Gallon Long - ACF tank.
"If there were an invisible cat in that chair, the chair would look empty. But the chair does look empty; therefore there is an invisible cat in it." C.S. Lewis, Four Loves, 1958
I have a hospital tank and also have epsom salt. I don't use conditioners as I only use reconstituted RO/DI water.
What type of fish do you have in the tank? 2 hystrix stingrays (female is larger ~7'', male is a baby), 2 blood parrots, 1 ghost knife, 2 kissing gouramis, 1 elephant nose, 1 rainbow shark, 2 pictus catfish.
How long has it been set up? about a year
Is the filter cycled? Yes
What are your current readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? 0,0,5
What type of substrate do you use? gravel, medium size - not sharp
What do you feed the frog? he rarely gets his own food anymore as he keeps on stealing stuff from others (frozen bloodworms, earthworms, live black worms and yesterday - a piece of squid. He never ate the pellets, no matter how many time I tried.
What size is your frog? about 3''
Again, pictures are very helpful[/QUOTE]
It hasn't happened yet, but those fish are not suitable tank mates for your frog and could end up killing it.
Do not do the bath in the 10 gallon, keep this as a quarantine tank. Use a different container for the bath. Right now your frog needs fresh fresh fresh water, pick up a conditioner and do multiple water changes and use always fresh water in the bath.
72 Gallon Bow - ACF and GF tank.
26 Gallon Bow - ACF tank.
20 Gallon Long - ACF tank.
"If there were an invisible cat in that chair, the chair would look empty. But the chair does look empty; therefore there is an invisible cat in it." C.S. Lewis, Four Loves, 1958
Stingray would be the only possible threat, but she's more interested in trying to eat fish (and already succeeded with a one platy already, which I expected) - she has no interest in the frog beyond pushing him around the tank when he's in the way.
Why would I condition RO water? What can the conditioner possibly do except fouling it up?
if you have lots of spare RO water around then by all means use it - I was stressing not to use water already in the 105 gallon as to help treat your frog you want the freshest water possible in both the bath and QT tank.
You have edited the response I was referring to - - you had originally said "I have a hospital tank and also have epsom salt. I don't use conditioners as I only use reconstituted RO/DI water. Considering it's a bath, should I go for the full 10g or just use my "bath" tank, which is 1/2g and I can then use the display tank water?"
You edited out the part about using the display tank water - - this is where I was stressing that fresher water would be much more helpful, not water taken from your tank.
72 Gallon Bow - ACF and GF tank.
26 Gallon Bow - ACF tank.
20 Gallon Long - ACF tank.
"If there were an invisible cat in that chair, the chair would look empty. But the chair does look empty; therefore there is an invisible cat in it." C.S. Lewis, Four Loves, 1958
I misread the first post, hence the response edit. Thanks for your advice.
RO is brewing now, a few more gallons left.
On a related subject ACF just stole a nightcrawler from the baby stingray and swallowed it in a second, so he's eating.
It is good that he is eating - but to be honest the stingrays are not the only risk.
Blood parrot cichlids, elephant nose, ghost knives, kissing gouramis, and rainbow sharks are ALL semi-aggressive fish. When put with a creature who is not exactly semi-aggressive but acts more out of filling its gut then defending territory, you are asking for trouble.
Just because the frog has been lucky so far, does not mean it will continue to do so. Fish increase in aggression as they age - you could just be waiting for the inevitable unfortunately.
The bloat could be indicating a stressed, unhappy, unhealthy frog.
72 Gallon Bow - ACF and GF tank.
26 Gallon Bow - ACF tank.
20 Gallon Long - ACF tank.
"If there were an invisible cat in that chair, the chair would look empty. But the chair does look empty; therefore there is an invisible cat in it." C.S. Lewis, Four Loves, 1958
What temp do you keep your tank at? ACF like 20-24c
Well, since we are on the subject of extreme stress and cohabitation with aggressive species - all the things that should have killed me long ago, I discussed this with a vet. We took a blood sample and awaiting analysis. We also did discuss the water changes over the past week and it turns out that the bloat might have been an osmotic reaction to lower GH caused by a several 25% water changes. Let's see what blood test shows, but the good news is that he's gotten less swollen tonight, so there might be a light in the end of the tunnel. I have decided to leave him alone for now and monitor.
Please do not get offended, but I always prefer scientific explanations as opposed to emotions and perceived aggression. If I find out more or if the condition changes I will let you know.
the temp is 78F (25.5C). Can't keep it any lower since the house is at 77 during the summer (not it's not an issue now, but I don't want the temperature jumping) and between the pumps ( I have 3 and lights (they are LED, but still produce heat) I have to run 2 surface fans just to keep the water at that temperature. The chiller is an alternative, but I'm can't justify it for freshwater.
Just curious as to why you asked if you wanted to shirk off our suggestions? We ask and advise because we have a genuine care for the frog - we don't have to have degrees to know about proper care of an animal.
It seems you want a tank for people to point and exclaim over the mix...not really one dedicated to a certain sect of aquatic life.
72 Gallon Bow - ACF and GF tank.
26 Gallon Bow - ACF tank.
20 Gallon Long - ACF tank.
"If there were an invisible cat in that chair, the chair would look empty. But the chair does look empty; therefore there is an invisible cat in it." C.S. Lewis, Four Loves, 1958
I have an ACF who has been bloated three times due to intestinal blockages from eating too much, she is an exceptionally greedy frog and she will eat herself to death if given half a chance , i now have to hand feed her and her tank mates to control the amount she eats. I reread your original post and saw that your frog may have eaten squid, do you often feed it squid? if so how digestible is it? and how big was the piece? both food type and size of item may cause blockages, the bloating may be a blockage in the digestive tract rather than an osmotic fluid build up . I have successfully treated my frog by placing her in a bucket of cold salty water and leaving her in their for an hour, you might need to repeat this process a couple of times if it is a blockage. Please dont take offense at the advice offered in this forum, people are only offering suggestions to help you not insult your style of animal care.
The squid was not for him. He eats anything, stingrays are a bit more selective, being wild caught and just being stingrays. I have been largely unsuccessful of getting them to eat any type of prepared food - they just ignore it, and since at least part of the diet is full thiaminase, I'm forced to inject things with vitamins B1 and E. Overall - a huge pain in the neck. As far as the piece of the squid it wasn't huge, but big enough only for my female to eat, she had a few a went for a walk, this is when he grabbed it. It's quite possible it's stuck now as it's very hard food to digest. The good news is that vitamin E is laxative in humans, so it might help him to expel it. Controlling the feed is hard if not impossible since I have to drop seafood in the tank - stingrays are poisonous.
I take no offense at advise, but I do want to know the reasons why things happen and understand them before treatment. Lots of people treat animals the same way doctors treat humans. Oh you're sniffling? - Let me give you an antibiotic. No analysis, no tests - no science. This is exactly the reason why new antibiotics need to be developed all the time: they are overused and bacteria develop resistance. Same thing with animals, but to a larger degree since most people don't even talk to a vet before dumping a bunch of meds into the tank. My experience is largely with fish, not frogs, so I'm reading (went through the amphibian pharmacy reference last night) and is definitely interested in other people's experiences with similar issues.
My first question was to identify whether it was bloat in the first place and it doesn't seem like it is now since it's subsiding. Bloat in frogs indicates a failure in lymphatic hearts and fluid accumulation - same as in people. In people it's always fatal. Instead we jumped into treatments and discussions about happiness even before identifying the problem (I assume that's because ammonia wasn't the issue). I also disagree that you don't need a degree to treat anything alive - you kind of do. Experience is also important, which is why I was curious whether:
1. People have seen that.
2. Possible treatments and outcomes.
Oh, and I don't really care if people look at my tank - I look at it.
You are right about the causes of bloat. However, many people who keep ACFs don't realize that there are two kinds of bloating. There is a "hard bloat" caused by a bacterial infection, which, by the way, is almost always fatal. Treatment must be started quickly after symptoms are detected. The second type is a "soft bloat", caused by accumulation of fluids underneath the skin - this gives the frog an appearance like the "Michelin-man". This is not always fatal but must be treated to keep the frog healthy. Jenna is quite correct in her diagnosis and treatment. Salt baths do work for "soft bloat".
Jenna, myself, and others on this forum really appreciate these frogs. I guess you can say we are passionate about them. They are tough frogs and often don't get the respect as other species do. My experience with them goes back nearly 30 years. Jenna keeps several species of Xenopus and had tremendous success with them.
I am glad that the swelling is going down. It is a good sign that the frog is getting back to normal
Terry Gampper
Nebraska Herpetological Society
“If we can discover the meaning in the trilling of a frog, perhaps we may understand why it is for us not merely noise but a song of poetry and emotion.”
--- Adrian Forsyth
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