Sick White's Tree Frog...please help!

[hadkins0617]

Hello all! I think I have a sick frog. For the past few days he has done nothing but lay in his water bowl, rarely leaving. Any ideas on what may be causing this?

[Poly]

Hello hadkins0617! Welcome to the fourm!

It sounds as though you may have low humidity levels in your frog's Vivarium. Could you please post a photo of it's set-up?

What do you keep the humidity level at? What do you keep the temperature at?

Has your frog still been eating?

~Royce

[hadkins0617]

There are two frogs. We've had them for about 2 years and both were purchased together. One is fine, alert, eyes clear, green, etc. The frogs still seem to be eating. On their next feeding they'll be fed separately to make sure. The sick one is brown, a little lethargic and seems to keep his extra eyelids over his eyes and hasn't left his water bowl unless I take him out. He then goes back on his own. He doesn't seem swollen, and doesn't seem to be losing weight. You can see him in the water bowl when you look at the pictures. Right now the temperature is about 72 and the humidity is between 65 & 70.. in the "moderate" level on the gauge. The habitat is misted a couple times a day and the plant in the back right is a live plant. Thanks for any help!

[DonLisk]

I'd get him out of the dish and do a water change. When was the last time you saw him eat anything? Remember that they do look chubby from soaking and absorbing in the water.

Do you have both in the water dish together some times? They should be able to.
Where do you find them sleeping mostly? It should be on branches or attached to a large leaf normally.

[Poly]

I'll let Donlisk take it from here, I have no experience with tree-frogs, he does!

EDIT: What I really meant by that was he knows what he's talking about...! unlike me...

[hadkins0617]

I clean out the water dish and give them new water every other day, or every day depending on how much water is in there. And I mist each day. I last fed them on Saturday, there are still crickets in there for both to eat.

The bowl is large enough for both, however I never see them in the bowl together. Most of the time they sleep on the back wall or inside the rock cave, however this one has been in the water bowl when I go to bed and when I wake up. He hasn't moved out of it much, just seems to be lounging in there.

Thank you all for your posts and suggestions.

[Badger]

Don has more experience with them than me, but what type of gauges are you using? (Ex. Analog, Digital/probe)

[DonLisk]

I would basically keep an eye on weight and physical condition. I would check to see how the droppings are after he eats, If you keep him in a separate tank you can monitor how much he eats. Also, using a damp paper towel on the bottom makes it easy to monitor droppings. If he has runny droppings see the bottom of this post.

Whites Tree Frogs are active at night and will look sleepy during the day light hours. I would mist twice daily at a minimum to see if that changes behavior. The substrate should feel slightly damp on top and not dry.

If you are finding droppings from both frogs, usually found both in the water or below where they sleep, then you know they are eating. You can also look into having a fecal exam done with a local herp vet to get a clean bill of health on the frogs.
You can monitor how much they eat by using a glass cereal bowl. Place the bowl down into the substrate and drop the crickets in. A round bottom glass cereal bowl gives the crickets zero traction to jump out and escaped crickets sooner or later fall back in.

Now, as Dalton was getting to, hydrometers are not the most accurate things and when I select one I try to compare the readings off a few different ones to find several (different brands) that are reading the same. Basically, if your glass is wet, soil damp, and part of your top is covered, you have humidity.
If you have any type of lighting for daytime, this will burn off humidity quickly. Just keep an eye on it to see how quickly your readings change between misting. Your WTFs like between 50 and 70 percent and night temps around 68 - 70, days between 75 - 80.

One thing I would like to also point out is that your frogs like to sleep and perch on plants and branches so have enough up high for them to be on and sleep on. Snake Plant and Bromeliads are great for tree frogs and they usually are more active up high when they have paths to move across. IE: branch to leaf and so on. Mine slept most of the time in the Bromeliads and one loved to sleep on the snake plants leafs.

Lastly, I'm not a fan on treating something unless I know it is in fact the problem. A vet is your best bet for making that determination:
It is possible your frog has the following condition:
Symptoms: Listless, often found in water or hiding, watery droppings.
Cause: Parasites in intestines, “Protozoa”
Treatment: Parasites are always present in the intestines, but they will cause problems when the animal is weak. Treat with METRONIDAZOLE (FLAGYL) 1 drop in 8 drops of tepid water. Place one drop on the back of frog. Duration: Each day for 6 days. Treatment for the vivarium: 1ml per 5 liters of water; use this to spray the vivarium.


Keep us posted.

[DonLisk]

If George is reading this, I would like to hear what George has to say on how often one of his Whites is found in the water dish.
Humidity was fine but he just loved being in that dish.

[Herpvet]

Lastly, I'm not a fan on treating something unless I know it is in fact the problem. A vet is your best bet for making that determination:
It is possible your frog has the following condition:
Symptoms: Listless, often found in water or hiding, watery droppings.
Cause: Parasites in intestines, “Protozoa”
Treatment: Parasites are always present in the intestines, but they will cause problems when the animal is weak. Treat with METRONIDAZOLE (FLAGYL) 1 drop in 8 drops of tepid water. Place one drop on the back of frog. Duration: Each day for 6 days. Treatment for the vivarium: 1ml per 5 liters of water; use this to spray the vivarium.

Hi DOn,

I fully agree about the vet (as I would, being one : )) but just a thought if you are going to recommend treatments - it might be an idea to specify the dose (in mg/kg) of metronidazole you are using (and/or what size of frog the mentioned dose is for) and the specific preparation used - various different concentrations of preparation ar often available (can't speak specifically for the US personally, but I would imagine so), and some preparations may have toxic carrier ingredients.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.

[DonLisk]

Hi DOn,

I fully agree about the vet (as I would, being one : )) but just a thought if you are going to recommend treatments - it might be an idea to specify the dose (in mg/kg) of metronidazole you are using (and/or what size of frog the mentioned dose is for) and the specific preparation used - various different concentrations of preparation ar often available (can't speak specifically for the US personally, but I would imagine so), and some preparations may have toxic carrier ingredients.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.

Sorry, but this information was copy and pasted from the frog first aid section on the forum and I wouldn't have a way to determine what a drop equals in mg.

[hadkins0617]

Thanks everybody. We've been monitoring him, changing the water every day, got a new light to increase the heat and have been spraying the tank to keep the humidity high. He's doing better, spending time on the leaves and branches instead of the water dish.

We are still keeping an eye on him, but looks like he is recovering from whatever was ailing him.

Thanks again!

[CamilleElise]

I found this thread because I am having similar problems with my frog. I also have 2 White's that I have had for a few months now. I've raised White's basically my whole life so I am very familiar with the species and their needs.

I keep the humidity between 70-80 by misting the tank several times a day. The soil is damp as evidence that humidity remains in the tank. I also have a humidifier in the room where the frog tank is just to be sure to keep humidity up since I live in dry, dry, dry Tucson.

I have 2 White's, Dwight & Daphne. I got them as captive-bred juveniles and both have grown substantially since my initial purchase. Daphne lately has gotten extra fat, earning her the nickname of Jabba The Hut. Dwight too was getting nice and fat until about the last week. He's been getting thinner, but isn't yet dangerously thin, but enough to have me worried. And lately, as the person who started the thread noted, he has been sleeping in the water dish when normally he sleeps up at the top of the tank behind a fake hanging plant (I have a tall tank so they have room to climb up). Also, I change the water dish daily and replace the water with de-chlorinated water, so they always have a source of fresh, healthy water. And sometimes I do find the two of them bathing together as the bowl is big enough for the two of them to share.

I have tried to isolate him in an effort to see if he is eating. He did not eat either of the two crickets I provided last night, and I am not sure if he ate any mealworms. He gets really agitated when taken out of the main tank and placed into the carrying tank and spends his time trying to get out. He also isn't nearly as tame as Daphne so if I sit there watching him, he is extra-agitated and won't eat for sure. I did, at one point, see him looking at the food bowl containing the mealworms with interest, but I don't know if he ate any...

Any suggestions for me? Since he's losing weight should I just take him to an exotic animal vet to see if it's parasites? I'm not sure if/where he has been pooping. There is a small poop in the cage but that could be Daphne's. I'd keep him isolated longer but he gets frantic when isolate and I am quite sure that can't be good for him, right?

Help!

[CamilleElise]

Oh, also, I should note that normally Dwight is a big singer. Especially to Star Trek, The Office, Kelly Clarkson & Coldplay (don't know why, those just set him off) but I haven't heard him sing in about a day which is abnormal as he usually sings 2 or 3 times a day. I'm attaching pictures as well.

<---- Daphne, AKA Jabba The Hut

<---- The two frogs as juveniles when I first got them

<---- About a week ago before Dwight got so thin. Daphne is on the left, Dwight on the right

<---- Again, about a week or a little more ago with Daphne in the left, Dwight on the right

<---- Dwight today (I haven't changed the water yet). Much thinner.

I will also note though, that I wouldn't call Dwight lethargic as even when I went to take the picture of him in the water dish today he got super nervous and moved around a lot trying to hide from me. He still has energy to do that.

Ideas?

[Badger]

Rapid weight loss can be caused by parasites. Has he been eating/pooping regularly?

[CamilleElise]

I actually am not sure. As I detailed above I tried isolating him to eat but he gets very agitated being in the isolation tank and didn't eat either of the two crickets. Also, if he sees me around he gets very agitated so I couldn't tell if he ate any meal worms or not. There is poop in the tank but it could be Daphne's. I would like to keep him isolated for longer but he gets so agitated that I worry that the stress from isolation will make everything worse.

[Badger]

I would quarantine him for a few days/weeks. He'll get used to it soon, just use paper towels as substrate with some fake branches/vines to climb on. Watch for any poop, and when you get some bring it to the vet and have em run a parasite test on it. Usually they are only 30 ish bucks. Keep us posted!

[CamilleElise]

Thanks everyone! I actually got an appointment with the exotic animal vet today after confirming they have experience with White's Tree Frogs. They are too precious to me to take health concerns lightly. I lost a pair of Red Eye's a few months ago and it was devastating, so I am determined to keep Dwight and Daphne healthy! I once had a White's for over 10 years and I'd love to see Dwight & Daphne live that long or longer!

[Badger]

Awesome! I wasn't trying to push a vet visit on you, but how can you go wrong with one.

[CamilleElise]

Oh no, I totally agree! I don't mind paying a vet bill to keep my friends healthy! I can't have a dog where I live so my fish and frogs are very important to me! Plus frogs are just such neat animals! Once I had a White's that got a bad cricket bite that got so badly infected we had to give him oral antibiotics. Now, if you have ever had to pry open a frog's mouth to feed him medicine you will know what an impossible task it is! Needless to say Hortence would have NONE of it, and learned to spit the medicine out! He was such a smart little guy. But he lived for years and years after that, and it is so worth the $$. I would be devastated to lose Dwight, he's my little singer and I would so miss waking up at 4:30am and hearing him sing!

On a side note, assuming it's parasites, should I do a whole cage clean? Take all the substrate out and replace it with new stuff? I am considering doing that anyway, but I am not sure what other protocol is recommended in the event of parasites...