New White's setup questions - new to Frogs

[Kevin]

Hi everyone -

There's a forum for EVERYTHING....glad this one is here. I was hoping to get some feedback on my setup for my 6 year old's new Dumpy (the frog is about 1.75" long - a juvenile, I presume. (I should note that we also hae a corn snake and so are aware that there is special care needed in the viv with frogs as well.

We have the ZooMed 12x12x18" tank, with sphagnum moss substrate and cork on the back wall. There is a medium corner water dish (using bottled water) and the moss is damp but not dripping wet (rinsed in bottled water first). I have two hygrometers, one about an inch off the moss, and another near the top of the viv, there is also a thermostat at about 4" above the moss. We have one plant with fat leaves for it to climb on as well and it seems to like hanging on its leaves. The herp store recommended a 60 watt red bulb in the Zoomed Enclosure, to be on 24/7.

So -

The lighting seems excessive to me. 60 watts burning all day and night has got to get hot for the frog. The temp in the tank is currently about 80 degrees with humidity near the moss at about 70%, 55% near the top screen. The frog seems to always be under the leaves of the plant we have in there, leading me to believe that the red light may be too much. Thoughts?

I have a bunch of baby crickets in a plastic bag with spinach and romaine lettuce, dampened, along with some fish food. Sound good for a few days on the crickets? These are pretty small crickets....and I just have no idea how to work out the feeding thing. Are there resources on line that can outline a good feeding schedule? What about with maintaining a week ot two's supply of crickets at a time? I need to get something a little more manageable than a plastic bag from the store, and the cricket keepers I saw at Petco (the frog was NOT from Petco) seem cheaply made.

As far as feeding the frog....yesterday was the first feeding. We put about 10 crickets in and just let them roam. There to be fewer crickets today, but we didn't actually see the frog eat any. Should I put some lettuce int he tank for the crickets to eat before they're eaten themselves?

I don't mind spending a few bucks to get a viv in order that will provide the best environment, so I thought I'd post to the pros here.

Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated.

Kevin

[BG]

You are cooking him. Take out the 60. its too much. The wtf setup should have no lighting. If you keep live plants.use a compact florescent bulb 13-23 watts. You can also use 25 watts the most.. If it gets cold like 65 in the room . use those lights and see how it goes. If its not doing it,add the heat pad for your setup.

[erini]

I'm still new to this whole thing, but 60 watts seems really high to me. I have a 14 watt bulb in mine that I turn off at night and that is only because I have a plethora of live plants. I control the heat using a space heater, however I have an acrylic tank so side mats weren't a heating option for me.

As far as the crickets go, you can put a few in a small glass bowl and they won't jump out, then you can determine how much your frog is actually eating. I don't throw all of mine in at once, because I have no desire for them to eat all of my plants!

[ViperJr]

You are cooking him. Take out the 60. its too much. The wtf setup should have no lighting. If you keep live plants.use a compact florescent bulb 13-23 watts. You can also use 25 watts the most.. If it gets cold like 65 in the room . use those lights and see how it goes. If its not doing it,add the heat pad for your setup.

I would agree that it might be too much. However, you most certainly want lightning to create a day/night-cycle, using a timer. They are nocturnal and they need the day to sleep and the night to be active.

Also, I would highly recommend a feeding dish made out of glass, so the food can't get out. Just letting the crickets roam freely can cause problem, sinces White's are not the most agile eaters, and spaghnum moss can cause impaction.

[Kevin]

This is all VERY helpful, thank you all. I suspected that the heat situation was off. Is 60-70 % humidity at the moss level good? What temp am I after? With the heating pad, does it get stuck to the side of the tank on one side? If so, where do you mount the temp gauge? With the snake, we use a probe, but I think that's less important than the average temp in the viv. Thanks again,
Kevin

[ViperJr]

If you have questions about temperatures and humidity levels, I strongly suggest that you read care articles about them. I think there is one here in the care article-section. If not, you can always google it.

If you use a heating pad with adhesive, it will get stuck to one side and I'm not sure you can remove it and reused it after the first installation. Someone else will have to help you out there.
About the thermometer, I suggest one with a probe. No need to keep the ugly thermometer in there when you can use a probe. About the placement of it, place it where it's relevant to know about the temperature. Since they're tree frogs, I would not place it at the bottom, but a bit higher up.

[Kevin]

Thanks, Martin. I read the caresheet on here, but it doesn't mention the proper humidity range. When you google it, there seems to be a LOT of conflicting information, so I thought I'd come here and ask directly. Temperature is in the care sheet article, but the other part of my question relates to how to get those temps and humidity levels in the best way - ie - an under the tank pad, pad stuck on the side, heating rock, etc. I'm just not sure the best way to go and any advice would be most helpful. The glass bow trick was most helpful, and I already put one it. That, and turning off that 60 watt cooking bulb seems to have made the frog a lot more active.
Kevin

[DonLisk]

50-70 percent humidity is fine for the WTFs. Above that is usually too much.
Room temps are usually fine also. 68 to 70 nighttime and 75-78 daytime. A basic compact florescent is enough t make both a temp change and day/night cycle.

As Martin stated above, sphagnum moss is great for keeping moisture in the tank but can be a potential impaction hazard since Whites will swallow anything that hits their mouth when diving for a cricket.
Digestible substrate such as Eco Earth, Plantation Soil, or Coco Fiber is usually the best choice for a Whites Tree Frog.


Hope this helps.

[ViperJr]

Thanks, Martin. I read the caresheet on here, but it doesn't mention the proper humidity range. When you google it, there seems to be a LOT of conflicting information, so I thought I'd come here and ask directly. Temperature is in the care sheet article, but the other part of my question relates to how to get those temps and humidity levels in the best way - ie - an under the tank pad, pad stuck on the side, heating rock, etc. I'm just not sure the best way to go and any advice would be most helpful. The glass bow trick was most helpful, and I already put one it. That, and turning off that 60 watt cooking bulb seems to have made the frog a lot more active.
Kevin

I'm sorry, I did not quite understand that you were looking for different ways on how to raise the temperature.
A heating rock is definitely something that you don't want to use. It does not raise the ambient temperature much at all, it's more of a reptile basking unit (and even in the reptile hobby, they're frowned upon because some of them tend to overheat and literally cook the animal on it).
This basically leaves a UTH or lamp as a heating source. I personally think that the heat should ideally come from a source that's situated on top of the tank (like our sun in the wild). However, this can be tricky since you do not want to keep a visible light on at night. So, if you need heating at night (or don't want to use lamps a heat source), you can use an UTH that's place on one side of the tank, or a heat lamp that does not create any visible light. A low wattage blue/red incandescent bulb might also work, since many people experience that frogs seems to be less disturbed by these colors. However, do not use it when the frogs is settling in, since you do want it to be as dark as possible during that time.

[Kevin]

Perfect, thanks to you all. I think I'm going to get a pad with a thermostat, that way with winter approaching I'll have heat at night when we turn the heat down on the floor where the viv is located.....guessing that it will just be off during the daytime when the cfc is heating the tank. Good to know about the substrate, I'll switch that out tonight as well. Thanks again, all.

Kevin

[BG]

Whites tree frogs are very forgiving when it comes in keeping these frogs. The color of the frogs is also a good indicator of the temp/humidity is in small contrast,not extreme drops. The extreme changes could be bad for them. If the frog is bright green,its cooler and dry. If the frog is brown, its warmer and humid. I tried an experiment and it worked. I had the frog in a warm and wet tank,and the frog was brown/purple/ green. When i took him out side,in the fresh cool air, he turned all bright green.

[ViperJr]

Whites tree frogs are very forgiving when it comes in keeping these frogs. The color of the frogs is also a good indicator of the temp/humidity is in small contrast,not extreme drops. The extreme changes could be bad for them. If the frog is bright green,its cooler and dry. If the frog is brown, its warmer and humid. I tried an experiment and it worked. I had the frog in a warm and wet tank,and the frog was brown/purple/ green. When i took him out side,in the fresh cool air, he turned all bright green.

I'm pretty sure it's very individual. Yes, you got that result, but if I remember correctly many others did not.
So, do not rely on colour for indication of temp and humidity. It differ too much from frog to frog to tell. Just a heads up Kevin.

[Kevin]

Good to know. It seems like it may be dependent on 'mood' as well. When I went to put the glass bowl in, I had to shoo him to his 'stick'. His color changed immediately from bright green to dark gray / green. The tank door was open just a couple of seconds....maybe long enough to change the climate and precipitate the color change, but maybe not. I'm a numbers guy....I'll stick to the numbers. Thanks again, everyone. I'm sure I'll have more questions.

Kevin

[Tripe46]

I would agree that it might be too much. However, you most certainly want lightning to create a day/night-cycle, using a timer. They are nocturnal and they need the day to sleep and the night to be active.

Also, I would highly recommend a feeding dish made out of glass, so the food can't get out. Just letting the crickets roam freely can cause problem, sinces White's are not the most agile eaters, and spaghnum moss can cause impaction.

Not to change subject, but what food dishes are people using that crickets cannot get out of? I feed small crickets to my amazon milk frogs, and sometimes I put them in culture cups to dust them, and they are able to hop out of there no problem!

[erini]

A shallow glass bowl For whatever reason, they won't jump out of those.

[ViperJr]

A shallow glass bowl For whatever reason, they won't jump out of those.

Precisely. You can also use a bowl with smooth plastic, which seems (almost) equally hard to climb.

[BG]

I never tried the bowl with crickets yet. I tried it with dubia since they love to go under the substrate. It works great. Now my question for the cricket bowl method. Even if its smooth wont they jump out of the bowl,once the frogs go in for the kill. Will they stay in or jump out? . They cant climb but they still could jump.lol

Precisely. You can also use a bowl with smooth plastic, which seems (almost) equally hard to climb.

[ViperJr]

I never tried the bowl with crickets yet. I tried it with dubia since they love to go under the substrate. It works great. Now my question for the cricket bowl method. Even if its smooth wont they jump out of the bowl,once the frogs go in for the kill. Will they stay in or jump out? . They cant climb but they still could jump.lol

Strangely, they stay in the bowl even when the frogs are eating them. I've tried it with both dubias and crickets, and they just don't jump. No idea why.

[BG]

There you go Martin warm and humid.And he is brown.lol

I'm pretty sure it's very individual. Yes, you got that result, but if I remember correctly many others did not.
So, do not rely on colour for indication of temp and humidity. It differ too much from frog to frog to tell. Just a heads up Kevin.

[DonLisk]

some notes on cricket bowls.
If you use a glass bowl that doesn't have a very flat bottom, the crickets don't get traction and thus can't jump out. If the bowl is buried down into the substrate somewhat, any crickets that do escape will eventually fall back into the bowl. Don't know why they do this but it will be pretty routine for you to find one in the morning that fell back in.