I'm new and made "my home zoo" album

[gray frog in manitoba]

I find that very saddening, I'm afraid. You can keep a frog as it would prefer to live and still be able to take photographs like yours - it is possible to wash them off you know. (a) I don't think it's very humane to keep most species the way you are describing and (b) I doubt you're getting decent life expectancies out of them.

Wow - tough crowd. No holding back eh? I personally don't think that based on the info provided
the comment above was warranted....pretty harsh to judge a set up as being inhumane due to some missing dirt, and actually I take offense to the judgemental tone.
Cathy, I had stopped using a dirt substrate because our tree frogs are handled a lot and I too did not like the mess, nor did I not like being able to see and clean out their "poo" or being able to see crickets that had expired. I use reptile carpet on the botton, with a paper towel under their "hiding" spot which is changed daily...(ok everyone frown together now). I also have a lot of vines and artificial plants, and faux rock on the back of the tank. Our frogs seem to be healthy and if I may say so...happy. Your pictures are fab ~ looking forward to seeing more. Lisa

[John]

Please don't read a tone into something that was given in a matter of fact kind of way. That's a mistake that people make when reading messages like these on the Internet. You are free to keep your frogs as you wish.

For what it's worth, reptile carpet is a far better substrate than paper towel for frogs, in my opinion.

The following is not opinion though, it's fact: Aside from the unsanitary nature of paper towel (it is an almost unchecked breeding ground for bacteria and fungus), ordinary paper towel that you buy at the supermarket contains bleaching agents and other chemicals that are not good for an animal with very permeable skin - a frog. In a moist environment, these leach into the water and amphibians touching, standing or sitting in that moisture are then exposed to those chemicals.

So, that is why I said, in my opinion, it is inhumane. I hope this clears things up.

All the best,

-John

[Tom Highum]

Doesn't reptile carpet help prevent growth of bacteria?

[Kurt]

Yeah, if you don't wash it, but then again you can say that of most materials.

[gray frog in manitoba]

Thanks John, I appreciate your comments. I think that people join sites such as this for one of three reasons. 1 ~ either they have knowledge that they can share, 2 ~ so they can learn more about caring for their pets, or 3 ~ to enjoy discussion with people who have similar interests.
There are many different ways to say the same thing, and although we are all entitled to opinions (some which are based on more knowledge than others), I don't see a reason for making people feel like cr@* (can I say ****?) when they just may not know any better. So, since I am a sensitive person - in the future if it sounds like I am doing something that is not in the best interests of my frogs - please point me in a better direction, but don't say that I am inhumane, because I would never do anything to intentionally harm my pets. Now I am going to take the advice on the paper towels...so must run and remove them. Lisa (novice frog keeper, big heart).

[Tom Highum]

Don't take it badly John can sometimes just be a little rough but he always means well especially when amphibians are lives are included.

[John]

Thanks Tom.

Lisa, I did not mean to offend and I will choose my words more carefully in the future.

[Tom Highum]

John I didn't think that what you said was offensive.

[Kurt]

I thought it was a little harsh.

[JK]

I didn't mean to create any problems or controversy! I use mainly artificial leaves to simulate leaf litter. I also use cork bark and add a couple of crumpled wet paper towels for humidity. I clean daily and so I don't think bacteria is a problem.

I am interested in how you (John) found out that chemicals leach from paper towels and harm frogs. Many frog owners use them. Have they been found to shorten frogs' lives? I would like to do more research on that, so I would appreciate your source for that information.

Does anyone know if reptile carpet can hold moisture and add humidity?

Cathy

[Kurt]

I also use cork bark and add a couple of crumpled wet paper towels for humidity. I clean daily and so I don't think bacteria is a problem.

It shouldn't be, given your hygiene protocols.

[Tom Highum]

Regular paper towels (the white ones) are white because of bleach.

[John]

I am interested in how you (John) found out that chemicals leach from paper towels and harm frogs. Many frog owners use them. Have they been found to shorten frogs' lives? I would like to do more research on that, so I would appreciate your source for that information.

Aside from the fact that I have a PhD in Chemistry and a degree in Biology and Chemistry, I've been keeping amphibians for years and have a lot of experience. I'm all for paper towels that do not have nasty additives (in the US you can buy these at Whole Foods - elsewhere most health food shops sell them).

[Tom Highum]

Whoa I didn't know you were so good at chemistry. That is awesome I might have to ask a lot more questions.

[Kurt]

Oh oh, now you're in trouble John.

[Tom Highum]

Haha no I am pretty good in science class so I wont need help with that. But I am always full of other questions.

[John]

I don't advertise my background and I try not to wheel it out unless I'm called on something, as was the case here. Professionally my main interests are in pollutants, their remediation, and related topics like water chemistry. Which actually ties in quite well with amphibians, I think.

[Tom Highum]

Ties in greatly I must say. Well now I know who to ask when I have water problems in any of my aquariums.

[SludgeMunkey]

Aside from the fact that I have a PhD in Chemistry and a degree in Biology and Chemistry, I've been keeping amphibians for years and have a lot of experience. I'm all for paper towels that do not have nasty additives (in the US you can buy these at Whole Foods - elsewhere most health food shops sell them).

If you want some real horror stories on this topic, I can compile a complete list of the chemicals used in paper toweling manufacture. Just the chemicals in the boiler water alone will turn your stomach, but the direct additives are equally disturbing. Working for a paper products company has really changed my outlook on paper towels and pizza boxes.

Here is just a sample (of the ones I can spell...some of them are monstrous names)

Standard in almost all ALL paper products in various stages of the process from tree to finished product:

formaldehyde*
sodium hydroxide*
sodium hypochlorite
acetone
copper sulphate*
benzalkonium chloride
sodium borate
sodium pentaborate
sodium diphosphate
sodium triphosphate
and many, many others that vary by location, type of tree used, ect.

Asterisks denote high concentrations.


now, to keep from sounding like a paranoid alarmist (which I am), I cannot get a straight answer from anyone as to how much of what makes it into the finished products in levels that are dangerous. Just keep in mind that things considered harmless to humans can be fatal to amphibians.

[John]

formaldehyde*
sodium hydroxide*
sodium hypochlorite
acetone
copper sulphate*
benzalkonium chloride
sodium borate
sodium pentaborate
sodium diphosphate
sodium triphosphate

Next time I get access to one I'm going to wash some paper towel with a solvent and shoot the solvent through a mass spec.