My poor little albino

Originally Posted by emandkel

A quick (or maybe not) update:

I think something is still wrong with the frog and I do not know what it is. With my work schedule, it is difficult to get to a vet during normal business hours. There is no way I can get to a vet until Saturday and the exotic vets I've called have no openings on Saturday. I've emailed Dr. Frye explaining what has happened and is happening yesterday and have not heard back yet.

The frog's bloating went down by morning. It still had/has a "full" looking body which appears to be mainly fluid. I don't know if that is normal or not. But it is not acting normally, as least as far as burying itself as it was before -- it is mainly just on top of the substrate. Tonight I took it out for a lukewarm bath and the frog got bloated again -- seems to be retaining fluid I think. It jumps a bit funny too, like it is weak and also lands with it's back legs out a bit versus tucked in. I had thought maybe a calcium/vitamin deficiency as the frog has only once eaten in front of me (unless forced) and tends to come out after midnight or so to eat. By that time the crickets in the enclosure probably have lost the dusting. There may be a slight curvature of the spine at its back that may be a cause of some issues if it is curved.

I've bred/kept/raised many small animals in the past several years and mainly rely on self-treatment if necessary, including some meds. But I will take a small animal to a vet when necessary which was rare, despite parental resistance for me spending that money on an animal that could be "replaced" for less cost than a vet visit.

Anyway, at this point I can only self-treat it to the best of my ability/knowledge until I can 1) get it seen by a vet if still necessary, and/or 2) hear back from Dr. Frye on what could be wrong and go from there. Or maybe the frog is getting better -- just don't know about the bloating thing. It seemed stronger tonight than last night.

I'll update when I have more news.

They do tend to bloat up when they absorb water after a soak, but when placed in warm or Luke warm water they usually urinate and most of the bloated appearance goes away. I wish I knew more, but I'm not there to observe the frog and it behavior. I truly hope you can find more help for him.

That sounds exactly what happened to my albino pacman. It swelled up on one side, and had trouble hopping just like yours does. I wish I could tell you how it made out,but I gave it to someone with more frog experince than me, and she never gave me an update. All I can do is send good vibes for your froggie.

I made a vet appointment for tomorrow (Friday) morning. Unfortunately I will have to drop the frog off and leave it and go to work, then pick up the frog after I get off work. I hate to do that but this is the only way he's going to be seen. Hopefully she will be able to determine what, if anything, is wrong. The vet is about 10 minutes further down the road from where I work.

The bloating continued until this morning -- when I found poop in the enclosure. I still took the frog to the vet and the vet felt the frog was fine. She suggested (as have others) to feed outside the enclosure on paper towels and I will do that. One thing she suggested is I was offering too many crickets, but from what I've read and been told on here I am not. She also suggested a UV light to help with calcium intake -- again, for one thing this may hurt the albino's eyes and two, I don't think it's necessary anyway? I do know she is very good with animals she knows about, but I do not know if she knows a lot about frogs. She asked me about basic husbandry and thought I was keeping him in a correct environment.

To me, though, the frog still seems off. He's probably weak because of all this and that may be the reason. I do feel fairly certain all this is due to impaction issues so maybe once it gets fed out of it's enclosure and not consuming substrate with the food, that may resolve itself.

Originally Posted by emandkel

The bloating continued until this morning -- when I found poop in the enclosure. I still took the frog to the vet and the vet felt the frog was fine. She suggested (as have others) to feed outside the enclosure on paper towels and I will do that. One thing she suggested is I was offering too many crickets, but from what I've read and been told on here I am not. She also suggested a UV light to help with calcium intake -- again, for one thing this may hurt the albino's eyes and two, I don't think it's necessary anyway? I do know she is very good with animals she knows about, but I do not know if she knows a lot about frogs. She asked me about basic husbandry and thought I was keeping him in a correct environment.

To me, though, the frog still seems off. He's probably weak because of all this and that may be the reason. I do feel fairly certain all this is due to impaction issues so maybe once it gets fed out of it,s enclosure and not consuming substrate with the food, that may resolve itself.

UVB is bad for albinos eyes and skin. Vitamin D3 is done through supplementation rather than UVB radiation.

Originally Posted by GrifTheGreat

UVB is bad for albinos eyes and skin. Vitamin D3 is done through supplementation rather than UVB radiation.

You also have to consider that these aniamls are nocturnal and bury themselves pretty much all day long in the wild, and live on forest floors that have just as subdued amount of sunlight as your living room with the shades drawn.
It's worth noting that UVB lighting is ntended only for reptiles that spend a considerable amount of time in the open sunlight like a basking turtle or a abearded dragon or even an anole. If a Pacman frog got up on a log and soaked in the afternoon rays in full sunlight, it would shrivel up and die. So no, UVB lighting is not a neccesity with Horned Frogs and it may even make them sick. Especially an albino. That's you don't really see any albino Bearded Dragons in the pet trade.

Originally Posted by Ra

You also have to consider that these aniamls are nocturnal and bury themselves pretty much all day long in the wild, and live on forest floors that have just as subdued amount of sunlight as your living room with the shades drawn.
It's worth noting that UVB lighting is ntended only for reptiles that spend a considerable amount of time in the open sunlight like a basking turtle or a abearded dragon or even an anole. If a Pacman frog got up on a log and soaked in the afternoon rays in full sunlight, it would shrivel up and die. So no, UVB lighting is not a neccesity with Horned Frogs and it may even make them sick. Especially an albino. That's you don't really see any albino Bearded Dragons in the pet trade.

I will say this though, All Pacs except Albinos do benefit from 4 to 6 hours of UVB light per day to assist in the production of Vitamin D3, but is entirely unnecessary. Albinos can be burned and actually go blind from Fullspectrum light and UVB radiation.

Should I try to get another opinion? One vet that was listed on the herp vet connection I asked if they see frogs, well the receptionist said I don't think so, but asked the vet and he was familiar with pac man frogs but I don't know about other frogs. The receptionist of the vet I went to when I asked the same question, immediately said the vet sees exotic frogs. My gut feeling is the vet is one of the most knowledgeable herp vets in the area. There is one more option, but I would definitely have to get off work to take the frog to be seen.

Since a few days ago, the back legs of the frog aren't always under it, especially when moving around. I had sent Dr. Frye a video of it hopping around (on a damp paper towel outside of his home), and am waiting to hear his opinion. It seems when I feed it anything, it bloats up and stays bloated possibly until it poops. I wish it had been bloated when I took it to the vet.

Any more comments / advice / etc would be welcome.

Originally Posted by emandkel

Should I try to get another opinion? One vet that was listed on the herp vet connection I asked if they see frogs, well the receptionist said I don't think so, but asked the vet and he was familiar with pac man frogs but I don't know about other frogs. The receptionist of the vet I went to when I asked the same question, immediately said the vet sees exotic frogs. My gut feeling is the vet is one of the most knowledgeable herp vets in the area. There is one more option, but I would definitely have to get off work to take the frog to be seen.

Since a few days ago, the back legs of the frog aren't always under it, especially when moving around. I had sent Dr. Frye a video of it hopping around (on a damp paper towel outside of his home), and am waiting to hear his opinion. It seems when I feed it anything, it bloats up and stays bloated possibly until it poops. I wish it had been bloated when I took it to the vet.

Any more comments / advice / etc would be welcome.

It never hurts to get another opinion. Its possible that one Vet can have more knowledge and experience than the other.

Is there any way you can send that video to the other vets as well and try to get an opinion? If none of them know a lot about pacs they might be willing to give you an opinion based on that instead of making you bring it to the office. Seems like even among exotic vets it's sort of a hit-or-miss whether they can treat certain animals...

Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Is there any way you can send that video to the other vets as well and try to get an opinion? If none of them know a lot about pacs they might be willing to give you an opinion based on that instead of making you bring it to the office. Seems like even among exotic vets it's sort of a hit-or-miss whether they can treat certain animals...

I can try, but in my experience, in order to diagnose/treat an animal they will want me to bring the animal in.

A couple of pics of him -- the one on the left is from yesterday, the one on the right was taken a few hours ago. I fed him a piece of worm about 3/4" long this morning -- had to pick him up and put the worm to his mouth but he opened up his mouth and once it was in, ate it. I should say that the video I took was several days ago, and other than seeing a little bit of moving around in his enclosure I haven't had him out of the enclosure to really "test" how he moves/hops around since then.



I am going to wait to see what Dr. Frye has to say, then go from there I guess. I will probably call the vet back on Monday to see if she has any other ideas and will call another vet or two to see when I can get in if needed. I feel lost here, out of my league, I just don't know what to think on this ... too new to frogs and their potential health issues.

Originally Posted by emandkel

I can try, but in my experience, in order to diagnose/treat an animal they will want me to bring the animal in.

Yeah, they usually do. You must be in a really good area for herp vets since you have several to choose from! Most places don't have any..
I was just thinking you might get lucky and have one of them say they had seen something like it and to bring it in. Kind of a long shot though. At any rate, good luck, hopefully someone will be able to help

Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Yeah, they usually do. You must be in a really good area for herp vets since you have several to choose from! Most places don't have any..
I was just thinking you might get lucky and have one of them say they had seen something like it and to bring it in. Kind of a long shot though. At any rate, good luck, hopefully someone will be able to help

Actually, I'm not sure how many herp vets there are in my area. I know there are several that "see" exotic animals, at least a couple "see" reptiles, at least 2 vet places "see" frogs, at least one more will "see" pacman frogs, but as far as knowledgeable and experienced frog vets -- don't know.

A quick update as it is or should be way past my bedtime when I have to work tomorrow -- the little one buried itself this morning, the first I've seen since the impaction. Moreover, it came back out tonight, active, alert, not bloated, hopping fine. I went ahead and force fed it 4 small worm pieces as it did not show any interest in eating and was looking thin. Little guy was strong, squirmy, and resistant. I'm hoping it is on the road to recovery.

Originally Posted by emandkel

A quick update as it is or should be way past my bedtime when I have to work tomorrow -- the little one buried itself this morning, the first I've seen since the impaction. Moreover, it came back out tonight, active, alert, not bloated, hopping fine. I went ahead and force fed it 4 small worm pieces as it did not show any interest in eating and was looking thin. Little guy was strong, squirmy, and resistant. I'm hoping it is on the road to recovery.

That's a good sign. Keep it up.

Good to hear. Maybe it was just taking awhile to recover from the impaction.

As I mentioned in another post, the frog bloated up again after feeding it. I think it's bloating is gone now but haven't unburied him to check. I did hear from Dr. Frye and he suggested a medication that should help with the bloating and recommended a first aid kit with a few meds to keep on hand at all times. Wow -- never have had a vet suggest that, they always want you to bring the animal in and if meds are necessary, only give enough for the treatment that is needed at the time. Guess that may be one difference between an online vet and the local vets. Regardless, I strongly recommend ANYONE having a first aid kit / some common meds on hand for the animals they have, especially those people who have several pets like I have. I kept a couple different antibiotics, among other things, when I kept small animals. So I will be getting the meds he suggested. He also suggested not feeding the frog for a few days. I'll watch it's weight and act accordingly.

Another overdue update. I decided on a wait-and-see approach -- no meds. I gave him a piece of worm every 2 - 3 days (force fed a few times). I think a week ago I offered him a piece of worm, teased him with it, and he ate it. Since then, the next time about 2 days later, he went after the worm piece with gusto, fed him 4 pieces, then another good feeding last night. No bloating for the last week. I've been going slow since he was bloating. But I think he's recovered now.